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Mycotoxins and Immune Responses with Dr. Eric Gordon

Dr. Gordon joins the Natural Evolution Podcast with Michael Roesslein, for another episode in this 2-part series diving into the nuances of mycotoxins and immune responses – including how to understand the differentiation of direct toxic effects versus secondary immune responses and the role mycotoxins can play in a variety of conditions.

Did you miss Part I? The first part of this 2-part series is available for listening now! Listen to episode 18 to explore Chronic Inflammation and the Important Cycle of the Cell Danger Response.

The mycotoxins didn’t cause the autoimmune disease… they go in there and they damage how your body talks to itself.

Then — depending on how you’re lined up, you can have rheumatoid arthritis, you can get manic, you can develop severe OCD. It’s not that the mycotoxins caused that. It is how your body responds to it.

Dr. Eric Gordon, Season 2 Episode 18, the natural evolution Podcast

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Podcast Transcript

Michael Roesslein: And we’re live. We only did 27 non-recorded minutes at the beginning of this one. We’re back with another episode with Dr. Eric Gordon, which, you probably just listened to the last one. We’re going to do a follow-up, which is going to be awesome. Dr. Gordon, thanks for coming back, doing two of these. I appreciate it.

Last time, we talked about the cell danger response and mitochondria, and what happens in the body with, well, we actually got into post-viral infection syndromes on accident, and a whole bunch of other things about chronic inflammatory conditions, and how that keeps the body in a state of disease, and the different mechanisms by which it happens, and how there’s no such thing as localized inflammation, really, that when there’s inflammation, there’s inflammation everywhere and what that does.

Today, we’re going to talk about what is really one of the hottest topics in the functional medicine world is mold, and do a deep dive into that. But if anybody didn’t catch, last time, I’m going to give a little intro, before we get rolling.

It’s not chronological, you don’t have to have listened to the last one before you listen to this one. So you can stick around here, then go back and check out the other one, if you haven’t listened to it.

But Dr. Gordon, MD, is the president of Gordon Medical research Center, and the founder and ownere of Gordon Medical associates, a private medical practice in the San Francisco Bay area, specializing in complex chronic disease. In addition to clinical practice of over 30 years, Dr. Gordon is engaged in clinical research.

In 2007 – 2009, he created a series of medical symposia bringing together leading international medical researchers, and cutting edge clinicians, focusing on chronic fatigue syndrome, Lyme disease, autoimmune diseases, and autism, among others. And he has now combined forces, in some ways, with Dr. Robert Naviaux and his research into metabolomics, I always can’t say that word, mitochondrial function and chronic inflammatory disease.

I’ll just give the disclaimer, because I remeber, you did last time, that you mostly supply the patients, and Robert the brains. So…

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah.

Michael Roesslein: That’s in a nutshell, and he’s also our doctor that we work with, personally, with Mira’s, I don’t even know what to call them anymore, multiple, maybe kind of, sort of autoimmune conditions that might be something else, and definitely suck when they happen, and he’s helping us with that. So we work directly with Dr. Gordon ourselves.

And so, mold. I know when this airs, you’re going to be in screening or hosting a Mold in Mycotoxin Summit. Editor’s Note: The Mycotoxins and Chronic Illness Summit 2.0

Before we got on air, I said, “10 years ago, something like a Mold in Mycotoxin summit, everyone would be, ‘What the hell are they doing, or why are they talking about that?’”

Now, over the last 10 years, I’ve watched mold go from some fringe thing that only weird, fringe-y, “I’m really sick forever, and don’t know what’s going on” people would be talking about, to it’s almost the firts thing now, when somebody comes in with some sort of chronic disease, they’re, “Is there mold in your house? If you check for mold, is this mold toxicity?”

What is going on? Is there more mold? Is the mold more angry, or are we more susceptible to getting sick from it?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Wow, it’s always nice to start off with a question that I don’t have a great answer for. Awesome.

Because you got to go back, is that, remember that Dr. Crook, and I’m blocking on names, but he was one of the leaders back in the ’70s, was writing about, in those days, it was Candida people followed on, but that there was something about chronic mold exposure, and mold carriage.

That’s an area that we’ll touch on, because there’s controversy over that. But anyway, but I believe it’s an issue.

That was a big deal, even in the ’70s, ’80s, ’90s, but it was a big deal only in, what, in those days, we called the alternative medicine community, which was much smaller and less part of the population.

And that is a good question. Do we have that much more, or do we have that much more awareness? On one level, I think we have that much more.

In a way, if you think of it, like autism. Autism in the ’60s was a rare condition, okay? Dr. Sidney, Sid Baker, who is, I consider, one of the deans of autism in America.

He’s now a little bit older than me, so he’s old, but he was at Yale in the ’60s, and actually, he was already, probably the late … Yeah, the early ’60s, he was in school there.

And he said, “When there was a kid with autism, I mean, all the residents went to see, it was rare. This was an event. This was a rare disease.”

Now it’s, I don’t know, one in 60, or one in … I mean, it’s insane.

It was one in 10,000, maybe 20-30 years ago. I mean, so things are changing.

Michael Roesslein: When I was growing up, we heard about it, but it wasn’t like we would have known. I didn’t know anybody who was diagnosed on the spectrum in any way. Not within my school.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. Well, the concept of the spectrum was something that I think we, that’s maybe a little newer. It was always there, but I think it was newer. But the amount, it seems to be going like wildfire.

I don’t think it’s just diagnosis, especially for the more severe forms of autism in young kids where they really aren’t able to function in the mainstream. A lot of people are on the spectrum can do fine with a little coaching. But there are lots of kids who just, the environment, everything sets them off.

Anyway, my point is, is that things have changed. Now, I think there was a lot of this before, and it was just unrecognized, but really, I have to admit, I hadn’t thought about this question, but it has dramatically increased now.

We started dealing with mold toxicity, remember, I’m sorry, I said, Dr. Crook. I can’t remember the other doctors who were famous for the yeast early on, the yeast connection in many other books, and I said in the ’70s, ’80s, early ’90s. But Dr. Shoemaker really brought us out in the early 2000s. He really got mold as being an issue.

Now, you remember, Dr. Shoemaker is now saying that he thinks that 80% of the problem in water damaged buildings, anyway, isn’t just mold, but it’s Actinomyces. It’s a bacteria that feeds on water damaged materials, just like mold does.

I mean, basically, mold and these bacteria are ubiquitous, they’re everywhere in the environment. You can’t get away from them, but they don’t tend to produce toxins, unless they get a lot of food for free.

That seems to be the interesting thing about toxin producing creatures, if you will. The same thing seems to happen with the red tides, where you have a whole lot of single cell organisms that are all capable of producing toxins, but don’t usually do much, and then, suddenly, just literally changed the color of the water. [crosstalk 00:08:26].

Michael Roesslein: I lived in Florida for a little bit, and I saw and smelled a red tide once, and it’s something to behold.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. Okay, well, those are algae. I mean, these are single cell organisms, but the point is, they don’t seem to happen, unless they get in a huge food source. Because it takes a lot of energy to make toxins, so you usually save it.

Michael Roesslein: Which are mold, the mold in people’s homes, or in offices or buildings, or things that are going to cause health problems, that’s generally from water damage, of some kind?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, yeah. When they grow, yeah.

Because we see that they’re there, but without moisture, most of them can’t reproduce to the level that they’re going to start producing enough toxins.

Michael Roesslein: I got it. A significant amount of, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. Because just, seeing, we all get, you see a little mold around a window sill, I mean, that’s a hint that you’ve got excess humidity. So you should take it seriously, but that’s usually not what’s making you sick. It’s usually inside your …

Michael Roesslein: It’s the wall covered in mold that’s behind your drywall that you don’t see, or the floor covered in mold underneath the tile, that you don’t see.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Exactly, yeah.

It usually takes quite a bit to get you. But again, those are telltale signs that the humidity in the house will be too high.

There are a few molds that can grow in low humity, but something called Wallemia. But basically, most of them need a fair amount of [crosstalk 00:09:57].

Michael Roesslein: So it’s a combination of, there’s more people getting sick from mold, that’s true. And we are much better at recognizing it, or especially diagnostics.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, but you know, definitely-

Michael Roesslein: I’ve seen eight different mycotoxin tests get released in the last five years.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Oh, yeah. Well, no, and I was working on one myself. No, no, there’s definitely, I have to say, I think it is getting worse. I can, because I know we saw mold people for a long time. I said, when I first started doing this stuff in the ’80s, and really got into it, and full-time in the ’90s, we saw a lot of people with mold, but like you say, now it seems like almost everybody, well, not everybody, but, a lot of the people with chronic Lyme also now have a mold on top.

And it could be also, remember, what’s changed is, our buildings have become much tighter. Now, that’s a great way to increase humidity, and trap it in the house, is a tight building. I mean, I’ve lived in old houses, and old houses can have a lot of mold. But they also have a lot of ventilation. And that can make it [crosstalk 00:11:12].

Michael Roesslein: You can call it ventilation, you can call it unsealed roofs, I mean …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, well, okay.

But yeah. No, I think, put it like this, air exchanges. [crosstalk 00:11:19] …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, a lot more air exchange between the inside and the outside, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. If you’ve got a house that’s got one air exchange an hour, well, you got a really tight house that you’re going to have … If you have a little bit of mold, you can have a big problem. Okay?

Just the same way as you hook up the same problem with the off-gassing from the chemicals in your house. Because, I mean, these will all play roles, and it’s very hard to piece out which is doing what.

Because it is that you think it might be the mold. But if you have a really tight house, you might be just having a lot of volatile, organic compounds from stuff that you bought.

Michael Roesslein: In carpet, furniture, cleaning products, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, exactly. Because the thing that determines the level of symptoms is your genetic susceptibility. Because the reason we have such arguments over the validity of mold, and as a cause of illness, because I mean, remember, people are still fighting about this.

I mean, we know that mold can cause illness. That, everybody agrees with, okay? But the idea that background levels in houses, or how do you say, moderate levels in house, where one person is sick, and five others are asymptomatic. The fact that that’s…

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. Why is that?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Because we’re different. Hey, one guy can eat …

Michael Roesslein: The mold has been a factor in all three of Mira’s flares. There’s been a mold exposure that was involved in all three of them, and I didn’t get sick.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right.

Michael Roesslein: So, I mean …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. And especially, because, she wound up, she’s a very good example of how this can be indirect, is that she wound up with an autoimmune disease, of where her immune system lost its balance. This is a very good example.

And mold, usually, I mean, there’s one mold, what is it, mycophenolic acid, that we even make into a medicine called Cellcept, that’s used as an immune suppressant.

Michael Roesslein: Interesting.

Dr. Eric Gordon: But for her disease, for instance, that’s why it’s always so important that people understand that the immune system is all about balance. If you suppress your T health, the regulatory parts of your immune system, you can wind up with an autoimmune disease.

Normally, we think of T-cells suppress, I mean, immune suppressors, as treating autoimmune disease, because they do. But there are natural ones that can actually suppress or down regulate the cells that would actually control your immune system from overreacting.

One of the things we have is that if you knock out your cells, that being your NK cells, your Natural Killer cells. Well, the, suddenly you can get a lot of viral flares. And it’s not because…

Michael Roesslein: You get cancer, right?

Dr. Eric Gordon: … You won’t get cancer. But I mean, it can happen, probably, with mold. It can happen. I mean, that’s what COVID does. It knocks down your NK cells, your Natural Killer cells, and a lot of your cytotoxic T-cells.

That’s why people have a lot of flares of viral infections. some people with Epstein-Barr and stuff will flare after COVID.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, I saw that one study that showed pretty high correlation between high levels of Epstein-Barr, and more severe COVID.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, but it’s probably …

Michael Roesslein: But cases, it was pretty statistically relevant.

Dr. Eric Gordon: … Yeah. But it’s probably because you’ve lowered the cytotoxic T-cells, which means …

Michael Roesslein: The COVID drove up the Epstein-Barr.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, well, and so, suddenly, the Epstein-Barr can come out and play, before you can suppress. So it’s this lack of linearity, which we keep coming back to. You know how I talk about things that we have to remember.

So, mold illness has gone up. I mean, that’s what we’re seeing, because we’ve been treating this a long time. We always have talked about what to treat first, and I always look at the progression of things.

When we started really understanding that all these things were happening in the same patient we’d see, our people, we thought, had Lyme disease. Then somewhere in the late ’90s, early 2000s, we started to go, “Oh, my God, they have Babesia, also. You have to treat the Babesia first.”

A little later, we realized, “Oh, Bartonella is the big part here.” So the teaching became, “You got to treat the Bartonella first,” and those are “kind ofs.” But they’re not, people took them as absolutes, because people like rules, but sometimes, you do need to come out …

Michael Roesslein: It makes things easier to have a set of order, that you have to treat things in, though, or an order that they happen in.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah.

Michael Roesslein: I mean, we’re pattern recognition brains. We need to have that kind of …

This is where these treatments become more of an art than a science, when you have to factor in the …

Dr. Eric Gordon:

Well, that’s, you see, you said it right there. Our brains work, our brains are designed to be good engineers, okay? That’s what we do really well is, we can do, be a good engineer.

But when you’re working with things, that they’re, when you’re from the inside, you can’t be just an engineer. Because you don’t have all the data, and you can’t measure things completely. So you really are much more of an artist, but you got to keep the engineer piece happening, but just don’t think it’s everything.

So yeah, it is nice to realize that there often is a level. Just like now, we realize, is that you often have to treat the mast cells, before you can treat the mold. And you often have to treat the mold and the mycotoxins before you can get to any of the bugs.

And whether you have to treat the viruses or the bacterial ones first, that kind of depends more on the person. And it always depends more on the person, okay?

It’s not an absolute. But it makes sense that when the mast cells, those are your immune cells, these are the most primitive immune cells. I think we talked about them last time, maybe we hit on them.
They really talk right to your nervous system, that’s one of the things, I mean, all immune systems have neurotransmitters on them, and release and respond to serotonin and dopamine, and stuff like that.
But the mast cells are really keyed into the brain, and they often talk right to the nerves, to the vagus, because they’re in the tissue, and they’ll feed back the information. So, if those mast cells are really reactive, it’s very hard to do much in people who are overly sensitive without setting them off, without getting the mast cells to be a little quieter.

But it’s a circle. Once you lower the underlying inflammation, the mast cells will tend to quiet down, and stay quiet, even. So mold, I just say, has blown up, and it’s like I’ve lived with it.

I said you asked me what sounds, that I’m thinking about it, it’s such an obvious question. Why is this suddenly such a big deal? And yeah, because I do remember, mold was a thing, and we treated it.
I remember when I first got to California, there was an ear, nose and throat doctor in San Francisco, who was measuring IgG molds. Because that’s something most doctors don’t do. But molds cause more of an IgG immune response, not the alert. Because, usually, when we think of mold, we think of allergy, which is a byproduct.

Michael Roesslein: Which is IgE, right?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Which normally is IgE. By definition, it’s IgE. See, this is the engineering brain again. They defined allergy as being mediated by IgE. So if it’s mediated by IgG, it’s not an allergy. Okay?

Michael Roesslein: Because we have to have a name for it, but the person gets sick.

Dr. Eric Gordon: But the person gets sick. You get headaches, you don’t feel good, and that’s one of the important things that I like people to understand about mold illness. You can have mold allergies. You can have allergy to mycotoxins. Or you can have a toxic affect from mycotoxins.

Michael Roesslein: Let’s stop for one second. I just want to cover that word. Because we’ve said “toxin,” and molds produce toxins, and we’re using the word “mycotoxin.” A mycotoxin is not a mold.

Dr. Eric Gordon: No.

Michael Roesslein: A mycotoxin is something a mold produces. Is it a byproduct, or a metabolite, or is it actually a weapon? What’s the …

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s a weapon. I mean, it’s how mold bacteria and molds produce toxins to kill other bacteria and molds, penicillin. I mean, these are all infectious toxins.

Michael Roesslein: We think it’s a medicine, but that’s because it kills a whole bunch of things when you take it.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. Exactly. But all we …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. It’s a medicine to me, it’s a poison to the other things that are in my body.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. And it’s produced by bacteria, and molds. Actually, molds produce bacteria, so I’m sorry, penicillin is NC. So mycotoxins are just what molds produce to protect themselves, to make more growth area that’s safe for them. The thing is, when they’re in nature, there’s so many of them. And they’re all fighting for survival, that production is usually on the small side. Unless they get into a really large colony.

Michael Roesslein: Okay, because they’re fighting on the microscopic level against a whole bunch of other things, and rarely in nature are you going to find a wall of a certain kind of mold …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, right, exactly. They can, pretty much …

Michael Roesslein: We’ve created the environment for that to exist.

Dr. Eric Gordon: To exist. So mycotoxins are part of the fungal world’s immune system, in a way. Okay?

I mean, that’s it. It’s just how they deal with other critters, and our bodies are perfectly capable of dealing with low levels of these, by either making an antibody to it, or just chemically breaking it down, binding it.

Glutathione’s a big deal, because a lot of these guys bind sulfur, take two sulfur atoms, and bind to them, and glutathione can offer that, and then sacrifice itself, and get rid of this thing. But if you’re not good at making glutathione, you will get sicker quicker, if you get exposed to a lot of these mycotoxins.

So that’s the neat point to remember is, you got molds, and you got mycotoxins, and you can have allergy to mold. You can be somebody who maybe eats, some people have trouble with food that’s been out for a few days, any kind of yesterday’s lunch, to some, people can get them sick, because mold does grow. And that little bit of mold will cause a reaction.

Usually, that’s an allergy response, the mold, I mean, occasionally it’ll produce enough mycotoxin, that maybe they’re that sensitive to the mycotoxin levels. But most of us eat stuff that’s been sitting out for a day and don’t notice it.

Other people have to wash their fruit in hydrogen peroxide. Because if they don’t, the amount of mold that’s on the outside will cause allergic reactions. So, in part …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. So I guess we could talk about that, because that’s one aspect. Because yes, more people are sick, yes, we’re recognizing more, yes, we’re building more buildings that make more mold. But there’s more people, percentage-wise, of people, that if you put them around the mold now, they’ll get sick, then there was 20 years ago.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Probably, probably.

It sure looks like that, it sure looks like that, yes.

Michael Roesslein: I’d like you to solve that problem right now, and tell me exactly why that is.

Dr. Eric Gordon: As I said, I think it’s the same reason. We’re looking at death by a thousand cuts. Everybody wants to be one thing. EMFs. I mean, EMFs screw with our body’s ability to dance with [EDs 00:24:12].

I mean, it’s like, if you’re a great dancer, you can ignore that your partner is klutzy. But if you’re not a good dancer…

Michael Roesslein: If you were trying to dance with me, for instance, you could still look good.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, right. But it’s the interactions, it’s the balance of things. So you’ve got EMFs, they’re screwing with how your body can inform itself, in information flow, energy flow in the system. But for most of us, it’s fairly mild. For some of us, it’s really big.

Again, it seems, in my worldview, it’s probably, it just varies. If you’ve got other toxins, if you’re eating, I mean, what we’ve done to food.

Okay, so food. I mean, the EMFs, I think, are bigger than we know. But that’s a hard one, because unless you’re an engineer, it’s really hard to parse what’s real and what’s not.

Because the information, if you’re not grounded in physics, it gets quickly into places we don’t know. I know enough to know that it’s real, okay?

And I know enough people who, you can just see how you can cause nausea, headaches, inability to think, by being in the wrong environment, and you take them out of that environment, and half an hour later, they’re better. I mean, it’s really clear, you just shut the electric off in the house, and they’re better.

So it’s clear that they’re telling us, that a lot of that, these EMFs are really important, from a million different reasons. But I just think, the food, I mean, you can’t get away from the food and water.

I mean, just the amount of chemicals that are in our water supply, the crappy food that people eat, the fact that most people don’t eat real food. I mean, I live in a bubble. I live in Northern California, and it is a food bubble, where the grocery store, I mean, even the mainstream grocery stores, have organic sections in them.

I don’t live in a place where you have to, where you’re doing your shopping at a 7-Eleven, to buy food. I mean, when you think about what’s in that kind of store as food? Yeah, you’re going to have a lot of sick people. Because you’re feeding them stuff that their body has to detoxify at such basic levels.

You’re feeding them chemicals that aren’t meant to be food. I mean, food. I mean, you always have to have a short one. I mean, chemical food is chemicals, yes, just like GMOs are…

Michael Roesslein: Non-food chemicals are in the food, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Non-food chemicals are taking up more and more. And the high fructose corn syrup, the things that drive high fructose corn syrup, it drives insulin. Your body can’t modulate that response, I mean, when you take in glucose.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, that’s the most commonly used form of sugar in processed foods, for sure.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s probably causing a lot of the non-alcoholic liver disease that we’re seeing, that’s another epidemic. Anyway, so I’m kind of getting off this. I’m trying to make a point, and the point being …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, but it’s a million things contributing to people being more susceptible to …

Dr. Eric Gordon: To toxins, that we have more of them, and your body is less able to deal with them. Because the way you deal with them, these toxins are often poisoning some very primitive parts of the system.

So they’re going after, lot of these are going after your ribosomes. Ribosomes are where you actually make, you take the amino acids, and you kind of stick them together, and make them into proteins, which become the enzymes. They’re the machinery of your body. I mean, that’s what basically enzymes are.
They’re the machines. The raw materials are more, we call them metabolites. So if your machines don’t work, you can’t do much. Doesn’t matter how much nutrients you put in. This is why there’s no one important piece in the body.

A lot of these mycotoxins go after basic units. Now they also go after the membranes of mitochondria, they interfere with mitochondrial DNA. They interfere at multiple levels, but they’re exceedingly toxic stuff. But the beauty of the system is that your body can repair this. We’re not helpless, okay?

But when we’ve already been depleted, and we don’t have enough true nutrients in our system. And when our bodies had to use up, I don’t want to focus on that, but it’s antioxidant reserves, just because of the garbage that you’re eating? Instead of the food being a source of the materials that are being pumped.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. Instead of it contributing to healing, it’s contributing to the disease process.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Exactly. They’re weakening you.

Go eat an American meal, and you’re weakening yourself. I mean, between the GMOs, between the grains? I mean, like you’re in Italy now.

Michael Roesslein: They eat grains here, but they’re not hybridized, they’re not sprayed in chemicals, they’re not GMO, they’re not crossbred.

They’re not all these, they’re the same grains that the Italian people have been eating for 2,000 years.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, and they get it. No, because, I mean, I am wheat, gluten sensitive. I don’t have celiac disease. But if I eat a lot …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. You just don’t feel good.

You just don’t feel good when you eat it.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, no, I get fatigued. Not all the time, but I get fatigued. It’s an allergy thing. I mean, I get this … When I was a kid, I didn’t know what was going on. I’d have to slap myself to stay awake.

I mean, it’s just transient. It’d be, for instance, 15 minutes, I would just be tired. I never knew what it was. And then, finally…

Michael Roesslein: Does that happen when you’re in Europe, or when you’re …

Dr. Eric Gordon: No, that’s my point of my story, is that I remember, the thing that really shocked me, I was there, okay? I was with people, and somebody’s father owned a pizzeria, and it was a big deal, “My father makes the best pizza, [inaudible 00:31:02].”

Michael Roesslein: Oh, you can’t turn that down, or they’ll kick you out of the country.

Dr. Eric Gordon: You go there, and I was trying to be polite, and we had a little bit, and it was really good. And then they made too many pizzas. We took them with us. The next two days, I ate these pizza, and I felt fine. I mean, I was blown away by the difference in [inaudible 00:01:23].

Michael Roesslein: It happens a lot, like it happens for a lot of people.

I’ve had two … I’ve only been here a month. For those listening, I live in Italy, and I moved here about a month before this recording. I don’t know the locals. So having two people ask me in a month, which, I’ve had about five total conversations, two of them, they asked me about American food.

Because they sell processed snack foods here. They’re not super popular. But if you go to the supermarket, you can find Pringles, or certain American snack foods. But the ingredients list is different.

They’re not great, it’s not ideal, but there’s colorings, and preservatives, and certain types of chemicals and things that are not allowed to be put into food here. Even by the garbage food, like that kind of food.

It’s not like I would recommend people live off that, but they asked me, because they know that. They know that American food allows ingredients in it that are illegal in the European Union. And they were like, I’m going to be the one that’s going to be able to explain this to them.

They’re like, “Why do you allow this?” I’m like, “Well, it’s not really my call, so I don’t allow it.”

But they were confused by this, because it’s such a fundamental thing to them, their food, and the quality of their food. It’s such an important thing, they can’t understand why it’s not so there, why …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Because it’s economics in America for the last 70 years.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, since the ’50s.

Dr. Eric Gordon: All the schools of nutrition have been funded by the people who make junk food.

I mean, really, the whole thing, everything …

Michael Roesslein: So they convinced the entire country that TV dinners are the most nutritious thing you can do, in the ’50s.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Oh, yeah. Every school of nutrition in America, like in Boston, in Pennsylvania, that was where Kellogg was, and in Iowa and the Midwest, where it’s all the big dairy, and …

Michael Roesslein: Soybean, corns, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: And they control the information flow, you know what I mean, and it’s not that …

Again, it’s a little close to not being, it’s not evil, but it’s, “Here’s your grant money.”

Michael Roesslein: It’s putting money over the well-being of an entire society.

You can call it what you want to call it, but that’s it is.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. It’s what it is, it is.

Michael Roesslein: Or evil, whatever, it’s a debate, what is evil?

But it’s some people being, “I want to make a whole lot of money, and I don’t care what the consequences of it are at all.”

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, it’s often by … Well, okay, I won’t go into that, but I agree with you. But usually, it’s only a handful of people who don’t care about the consequences. The rest of them care about the consequences. But they if it turns out to, “Ooh, wait a minute, but I want my grant, and I’m going to do this. Okay.”

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, and my stock portfolio looks good, and my 401k is going up, and my retirement’s going to be sound, so let’s just leave all this alone.

But hold on. We’re going way too far away, so …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, I know. We’re going all over the place.

Michael Roesslein: The food sucks, and the food is not supporting people, it’s depleting.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s depleting.

Michael Roesslein: We have exposure. You mentioned VOCs.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. Well, volatile organic compounds, which is something that Actinomyces makes quite a bit of, actually, it’ll be interesting. It’s that kind of musty smell, where you get in a building?

That’s usually where the Actinomyces is, in the mold. I mean, so maybe Dr. Shoemaker has a tendency to be, I think, sometimes, to overstate things. But he often turns out to be right, at least … Yeah, I mean, I have great respect for Rich. I mean, I think he has taught me an immense amount, and…

Michael Roesslein: He was the first place I ever heard of or learned about mold, about 10 years ago, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. He’s the man who really pushed this, the information out there. He’s done a lot of, I mean, creative thought, I have to say, his ability to bring us markers. And hat’s one thing I just want to mention for the people out there.

The markers that many people look at in what’s now CIRS, now it’s chronic. He really doesn’t talk about mold anymore. It’s mostly Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, which is basically what happens when you’re chronically inflamed, and mold can be one of the causes of that.

The markers in those tests are not mold specific. That’s one of the great sadnesses is that we still don’t have great things that I’m 100% sure are mold specific, and I’ll expand on that in a minute.

But just the markers, the VEGF, and the TGF-beta-1, and the C4A, MMP9, none of these are mold specific. So they’re not [inaudible 00:36:25] enough.

Michael Roesslein: So there’s other things that can throw those off?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. They’re just markers that your innate immune system is pissed off, and you’re just regulating, okay? Yeah. You can get there by multiple ways. I mean …

Again, if you have a mold exposure, and these are really high, and it goes down when you get away from it, in your body, that’s what’s going on. So it’s not that they’re bad, it’s just that they’re not one to one. Don’t stop looking just because you do a test, and you have these things, it doesn’t mean you have mold. You have to have a few other…

Michael Roesslein: And the mycotoxin tests, I remember when Great Plains came out with their mycotoxin test.

It was like, everyone was, “Oh, my God, this is going to be the greatest thing ever,” and it’s cool. It’s interesting to see. We’ve taken them when Mira has been sick, and for the first time, she had one million okra toxin A, and the second time, she had one million of one other kind. And so you know there’s mold, but that shows you the urine tests, they show you what is coming out of the body.

Dr. Eric Gordon: I know.

Michael Roesslein: So it’s very possible for some people that are totally inhibited in clearing any of these things, that their mold mycotoxin urine tests, which show pretty decent levels, because it’s all in their body, and not coming out of the body.

that’s the same with metals tests and different things. So yeah, I was disappointed to learn that. [crosstalk 00:37:54]. I thought we were onto something.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. Exclusion, excretion does not prove toxicity, but it does prove exposure, which is nice. I mean, that’s the thing, is that we have, just to be fair, we have RealTime, which does an ELISA, which is more of an antibody kind of test. And, I think, I always want to call them Vibrant America, call them Virgin America, Vibrant America, which is…

Michael Roesslein: The airplanes.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, I know, but … Marketing got me.

I forget if they’re doing mass spec, or … I think they’re doing antibody also, and Great Plains does mass spec. The nice part about a mass spec test is, mass spec really doesn’t lie.

I mean, they have real machines. I’ve spoke on it several times. In fact, he’s on our summit, the fellow who developed the test for them, Dr. Matt Pratt-Hyatt, yeah. But Matt is a great, I mean, I think, a wonderful scientist who really is thoughtful, and cares a lot about people, and he developed this really cool test.

But it’s not, it doesn’t tell us what we’d like it to tell us, which is, “Oh my God, you’re high, you’re sick. This is the problem.”

 We’d love it to be that linear. “We measured your blood count, your hemoglobin hematocrit are low. You have anemia.”

This test? [inaudible 00:39:25], not there quite yet. The numbers are high. You are being exposed, but are you being exposed enough to make you sick? My kind of figure is, if you’re 10 times above their upper limit of normal, it’s not good.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:39:43] Both of ours were extreme, extreme, extreme.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. So there’s something going on. If there’s two to three to five something, it could possibly be even from food, because there’s a lot of mold in food. I mean, that we understand …

That we’ve learned about mycotoxins, mostly from the agricultural world. The studies of mycotoxins in people is meager.

Yeah, it’s just meager. But on animals, there’s a ton, going back to the economic articles of the world, is because if your cow dies, it costs you a thousand bucks, or a few thousand dollars, okay?

If a person dies, it’s very upsetting to all of us involved, but guess what? There’s no direct economic loss to the owner. I mean, that sounds terrible, but that’s …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, I know, but it’s that, we’re back to the situation.

Dr. Eric Gordon: I mean, why the [crosstalk 00:40:36] is so bad is because it screws up the economy. Okay, that’s life, but …

Getting back to, so we know a lot of that …

Michael Roesslein: We’ll cover politics on the next podcast.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Another one of yeah, we’ll go to the basics, which is, “We’re human, and that’s going to be messy.”

But anyway, so mycotoxins are in our foods. They’re just always been there a little bit. The more they’re in storage, the more they are. Sometimes even organic foods, because they’re not sprayed, can even have more mycotoxins. Oops. I still think they’re much better.

Michael Roesslein: Things like coffee, and beans and stuff, that sits for a really long time in a storage facility?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Time, yeah. Very, very high, they can’t have a … But most of us, you’re okay with these background levels.

Anyway, so when you see, but when you see more than 10 times the upper limit of normal, okay. Something’s really going on there. And if you’ve got symptoms, even if it’s lower, it very well might be related.

I mean, even if it’s two times normal, it could be for you too much, just like with the mercury test, some of the sickest people with mercury I’ve seen, have had very low excretion levels, because their body, like you said, is not able to mobilize it.

Okay. Now, the other argument, though, is that these mycotoxins that we see with the Great Plains test are not metabolized.

RealTime is looking at, as an antibody test, which will get the partially metabolized and unmetabolized mycotoxins. But is that better or worse? No, it’s different.
Because if you metabolize them, they may or may not still be active. Because some of the metabolites are more toxic, and many of the metabolites are what our body did to make them nontoxic. So we’re left with not great tests.
There’s another test called, I didn’t mean to, oh, we might as well give people some information about, called My Myco, in America, that looks at antibodies to the mycotoxins, which is very interesting. Because most of the tests we can get in America are antibodies to the molds themselves, the fusarium, the [inaudible 00:43:02], penicillium, all these molds.
We can get antibodies to them, because they’re good, because a lot of people who are sensitive to mycotoxins also have allergies to mold, which compound, because that will get your mast cells going. Just understand that this is why …

Michael Roesslein: They don’t make you more reactive to anything else that you come in contact with.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. My thing is why I’ve been trying, myself and Dr. Parpia, have been lecturing to some of the societies, to try to get people to, and people don’t like these lectures because they’re confusing.

But to remember, that all this is happening simultaneously, and people have Lyme, have mold, have mast cell, have the BCF, have EBV, the question is, which one is driving the show, in that person at that time?

Some people only have one, but lots of people got a lot of them, and it doesn’t mean you have to … So it’s a teaching people how to dance.

And unfortunately, we have a bunch of doctors, who are just doing CIRS, or just treating Lyme, or just treating mast cell. And it’s not bad, I mean, and that works for a bunch of people.

So God bless when it works, but when it’s not working? Step back and realize you got that. It’s not you don’t have mast cell stuff, but you also have other things.

 It’s like having people with chronic fatigue, you can have chronic fatigue, and you can also have this other junk. Chronic fatigue often is the end result of not treating the other stuff, but it can be mixed in.

Anyway, so getting back to, the testing for mold and mycotoxins is not great. All we can tell you is that you’ve been exposed to lots of mold. So that makes it high likelihood, check out your house, check out your food sources.

Food, not necessarily a huge thing, unless you’re really sensitive. The house and the home environment, and your car, those are big deals. Check them out.

And there, I forget the name of the group, oh, I shouldn’t mean that, but there is a group of, oh, what are they called, ISE? But there is a, really, I apologize.

Editor’s Note: International Society for Environmentally Acquired Illness (ISEAI). Dr. Gordon is a member, and Dr. Parpia is a board member.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, yeah, yeah. An episode earlier, I don’t even know what order everything’s going in, but in this season, for those listening, there’s an episode with someone named Cathy Cooke. And she is a building biologist.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Wonderful.

Michael Roesslein: She does EMFs and mold. It’s a full-on building inspector type person.

It’s really cool, I learned a ton of stuff. And she can work a lot of things remotely now, they’ve learned how to do a lot of it, like send you a monitor and they walk you through. It’s like having a Ghostbuster telling you what to do. That’s what I felt like, with the gizmo. But yeah, Cathy Cooke, check out that episode.

I don’t know what the organization is, but she’s one of those people.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, yeah, that’s one of them, and this guy, Michael [Schranz 00:46:07], who I think is president of the group. Just because you’ve got to be careful when you … I don’t want you looking in houses.

I hate it, because it’s expensive. and it’s life altering, and it really can increase the family’s stress, which is the thing we hate to see, when people already are having problems. You’re sick, your spouse isn’t.

Michael Roesslein: Now you got to remediate your bathroom for $16,000.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, and now you’re spending a lot of, and not just on your doctor, but you’re now going to spend a lot of money on changing the house. Not the greatest thing for familial happiness and tranquility.

Michael Roesslein: No, I’ve been through that. We’ve had to move three times because of it.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, so it’s a hard sell.

Michael Roesslein: And while Mira was sick, we had to move.

That’s even more …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:46:55] But hold on.

I want to give a minor course correction.

Because we need to explain a little bit before we go, because I wanted to cover … Part of the reason why mold is such a problem is because there’s, you’ve talked about this a little bit.

There’s all these overlapping mold and Lyme, and neurological issues and autoimmune conditions, and rheumatoid arthritis, which, I mean, we’ve been diagnosed, undiagnosed, misdiagnosed with that, in our house. Is the mold, the mycotoxin, what the hell do these things do when they get in the body, that they’re linked to so many different overlapping, correlated … Is it causation? Is it correlation?

Are people more susceptible to autoimmune disease is also more likely to be reactive to mold? Or is the mold making the autoimmune conditions happen, or making the neurological diseases happen, or …
Well, I understand. That’s always the approach.

Michael Roesslein: Or do they rewire the immune system? What the hell is going? It’s such a sloppy mess, and so …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, it’s sloppy, yes. Imagine, think of the molds as the cytokines of the microbacteria wall of the mold world. These are chemicals that these bugs are producing, to go in and influence other cells, okay, and …

Michael Roesslein: That aren’t theirs.

Dr. Eric Gordon: That aren’t theirs, okay?

So they go in, and they make holes in the cell membrane, some of them. Some of them just will, well, that’s probably more of an accidental thing. There’s a few that actually work as estrogen binders, and things like that. But that’s, I don’t know if the mold planned that one. I think that’s

Michael Roesslein: That’s probably just to the proliferation of estrogen in the natural world, the receptors, and mold and things, probably do that, but …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, there are so many things, in essence, that’s a ubiquitous molecule. That’s what we always forget, that these all have room to grow.

Michael Roesslein: They might be accidentals, but …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, it may. Who knows?

Michael Roesslein: But it can fit in other receptors, then, I’m sure.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Exactly, exactly. But anyways, but a lot of these molds, like I said, they disrupt protein translation. So they disrupt how you make proteins. They disrupt the cell wall. In the mitochondria, they can disrupt the electron transport chain. They can disrupt mitochondrial DNA, because mitochondria have their own DNA in them, and also, some of the nuclear DNA that makes parts of the mitochondria. They can hurt that directly.

There are so many of these mycotoxins, that is the thing. They’re not like five myoctoxins, there’s hundreds that we discover.

So you, when you asked the question, which is the basic question, are these causing, are these just interrupting, interfering with our immune system?

Or do these cause disease directly? I got to say, it’s probably both, because they do cause an amazing oxidant reserve stress. They suck up, not just glutathione, but many other antioxidants, they suck up lots of free electrons. Or they produce lots of free electrons in the wrong places.

In that way, they can cause, probably neurologic, and again, in the right genetics, that amount of oxidative stress can cause disease, neurodegenerative disease, and probably trigger autoimmune disease, by causing inflammation in the organ, whether it’s the thyroid, or the joint capsule, where your immune system is already primed to be a little, not so good at suppressing an antigen.

Because that’s what happens. Your immune system sees a chemical, a protein that it normally doesn’t see. But if it’s one of your own, when it goes back into the lymph node, it should be destroyed. It should be recognized.

Now we don’t want to amplify this signal. This is a self signal, and so, some of us just don’t do that well. So yeah, there’s not a linearity here.

I hear your question, and I think the answer is, is probably, mostly, that the mycotoxins disrupt our antioxidant defenses, and our ability to our T- and B-cells are, just all of our immune, even our monocytes, that they interfere with the function of these cells, because that’s what they’re designed to do.

And then, however your body reformulates that, I mean, that’s not a satisfying thing. But it’s like, you’re dropping the wrench into the machinery. And it depends where it clangs, what sprocket it gets stuck in.

Michael Roesslein: That’s good, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: I mean, really, it’s a bad thing. Now, sometimes it’s designed to go into one particular receptor, and cause havoc, but lots of times, it’s that it causes havoc there. But the havoc only depends on whether you have a T-cell that is already not very good at responding to the signal to stand down, to not keep reproducing.

Because if that T-cell listened to the stop signal really well, even though it got the abnormal information, it would have gotten this normal stop signal. But if it’s not good at listening to the normal stop signal, well, that little bit of misinformation now gets multiplied.

 Suddenly, you’ve got T-cells that are aimed at your joint. Okay? But that never should happened. I mean …

Michael Roesslein: It reminds me of this marketing campaign from, is it All State Insurance, or State Farm Insurance, or one of those insurance companies? Probably, I don’t know. Years after the ’90s, to me, they’re all the same, so I don’t know. There’s been two decades since then, but there was, the ’50s were distinct, the ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, ’90s, To me, when we hit 2000, everything’s the same since then. But sometimes, since then, there was a marketing campaign, where there’d be this guy for a car insurance company, and they called him Mayhem.

He would just kind of walk around, and then he’d throw a banana up in the air, just backwards. And a car would drive by, and it would hit the windshield, and cause the car to spin out and hit a pole.

Then he would dump a bucket of paint on the ground while he was walking. And then, somebody would come, and they’d track the paint into the thing, and it would light on fire. And this guy didn’t care. He wasn’t intentional, he wasn’t trying to harm anybody. He just threw things, and knocked things over, and did whatever. And it broke everything around him.

Obviously, this is why you need to buy their insurance, but …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, and so, on mycotoxin …

Michael Roesslein: It sounds kind of like that.

Dr. Eric Gordon: But remember, mycotoxin has an intent. It wants to inhibit some function of your cell.

Michael Roesslein: Okay.

Dr. Eric Gordon: The question is, if it just did that, and the cell either died, or bound that mycotoxin, and removed it? It would be a problem. The thing is, is that, right, when it continues to spiral out of control, that’s when we get these other secondary diseases. I think the mycotoxin itself will cause dysfunction in the organ, okay? That then …

Michael Roesslein: And the things that maintain the balance get screwy.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Like, rheumatoid arthritis is a secondary event. Yeah, I think I can be clear there. Yeah. Now, I had to unpack your question a little bit more.

So yes, mycotoxins go in there. They do not cause rheumatoid arthritis. Mycotoxins go in, and will poison or interfere with the function of some of your T- and B-cells and some of your, what we call monocytes, and dendritic cells, that then process immune information.

So therefore, you can then gobbledygook up your immune information, and wind up with an autoimmune disease. But the mycotoxin didn’t cause the autoimmune disease, it just screwed up the information. Either it damaged some of the cells that should have been processing the information, okay?

That’s what it’s about. They go in there, and they damage how your body talks to itself. And then, depending on how you’re lined up, you can have rheumatoid arthritis, you can get manic, you can get anxious, you can develop severe OCD.

I mean, look, what happens with PANS and PANDAS. People can get all kinds of bizarre, emotional, mental, psychological states that are generated by inflammation in certain cells. It’s not that the bacteria caused that. It’s how your body responds to it, being unable to modulate its own response. So it’s all about modulation.
Your whole system takes information in, and then, depending on the health, and I always think … Think of it as balance.

When you are fairly athletic, and you trip, you don’t fall.

You do a skip, skip, skip, and you’re fine. But when you’ve lost your balance, you hit your leg on it. Your toe catches the edge of the carpet, and you’re down for the count.

Michael Roesslein: I’m learning about those things now, I’m starting to … Yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, no, no, this is the whole point of health. Health is not, not falling, or not tripping, but health is not getting hurt when you do. Okay? It’s not about never being exposed to this stuff. It’s about when you’re exposed, being able to dance with it.

I mean, we should limit our exposure, but I’m just saying, but when the body is healthy, you can deal with most of these, most of this crap. Though, I said, we are putting more and more, it’s like the …

Michael Roesslein: Got you.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Now you’re taking the trained athlete and blindfolding them, and putting them in a kid’s room, with all kinds of crap on the floor.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, yeah. You’re tying their arms together, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, yeah. Well, one of these days, you’re going to fall.

Michael Roesslein: So we only have a few minutes left.

You’re hosting right now, when this is going live, “There’s a Mold and Mycotoxin Summit that’s going on,” that we’ll have a link below, probably a little banner, be very easy to find.

Tons more information on mold. I’m sure that, I mean …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Let me just tell you a little bit about that, because it’s on mold and chronic illness. Because to me, the mold is the problem, when the cause is a chronic illness, or when it is on top of a chronic illness.

So it’s unpacking that, again, in the early years, when Dr. Shoemaker was first working in this, he actually believed that most of the people with mold in the early days had had Lyme first, which interfered with IL-10 and a few other cytokines, that allowed the people to lose the ability to respond well.

So it’s unpacking that, again, in the early years, when Dr. Shoemaker was first working in this, he actually believed that most of the people with mold in the early days had had Lyme first, which interfered with IL-10 and a few other cytokines, that allowed the people to lose the ability to respond well.

I mean, this is when he’s, remember, he was looking at the genes of his HLA genes. And he came up with a subset, which increased the likelihood that people would be susceptible to mycotoxins.

So it’s not just Lyme. But I think any chronic infection or chronic toxin exposure increases the likelihood that your body’s not going to dance as well when it’s exposed to mold.

There’s the genetics, and the amount of other stuff that are weighing on your immune system. So that’s what we talk about, as well. And we also talk about lots of different ways of dealing, of healing, because after you’ve had an exposure, and your brain or your body, and your nervous system, has developed patterns of response.

That’s one of the downsides of chronic illness, is that once you’ve blown up the balloon, once you’ve learned that pattern, you go back to that pattern easier. It’s just like addiction. If you get addicted to something, and you get it again, the desire is bigger than for people who are first exposed.
Well, unfortunately, the same thing happens when re-exposure can produce the symptoms faster and easier. That’s what makes life a little more, you have to be a little more careful as you go through, as you get more re exposures.

That’s another reason that some people are more sensitive. Because they’ve had a lot more exposures. And those are things that we learn about.

Michael Roesslein: So lots to learn there. Lots of tips, lots of suggestions, stuff on testing, some on recovery healing.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, yeah, lots of smart people. Yeah, I think that’s the most important thing is right now, I’ve been talking a lot, but I let the people talk, because these are some real experts.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, I looked at the list. It’s pretty impressive, the group.

It’s a lot of people that know a lot about these things, so …

Dr. Eric Gordon: That’s what we’re offering, just because we want people to think. I don’t know if you want me to throw it in, but you told me about a program that you were working on, that allows people to find the right therapies for them.

That’s what it’s all about, because I don’t help everybody. Far from it. I need lots of people who have different skill sets, and can hear things that I might miss. That’s what we want to give out to people, to realize that if you’re hitting the wall, and you’re not getting better with what you’re doing?

Michael Roesslein: Here’s some other tools.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Listen, ask for some other advice, see another, and get another perspective. I mean, and if your doctor gets real offended? Eh, put it like this. We all want to be your one, but the reality is, we’re not going to. We’re not going to have the answer for everybody. So hopefully, your doctor, even though I heard a little bit, they’ll stiffen up and go, “Okay, let me help you find some other advice, or another opinion,” because …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, great.

Dr. Eric Gordon: We all don’t know everything. We’re all learning, all the time.

Michael Roesslein: That’s a really important attitude to have about it too. I’ve run into many in this field who think otherwise, so … [crosstalk 01:02:25] Now I’ve learned, that’s a red flag, because it’s literally impossible.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, and to be fair, some of the best minds that I know have that attitude, they they know it all. And they’re often my teachers. I honor them, because it’s that single minded focus that allows to, that can sometimes illuminate that path. But if you’re the patient, you have to remember, if that illumination doesn’t shine on you?

Find somebody else.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, all right. Great, we’ll put the link down below. We’ll have a little banner, we’ll make it easy to find. Your website we’ll stick down there, too. If people want to go to your site, you guys have a great clinic there.

Several practitioners, really cool therapies and things down there, too, so …

Dr. Eric Gordon: We try, but again, there’s lots out there, and if we don’t have it …

We’ll do our best to help you find people in places that do. Because, like I say, everything works sometimes, which sounds kind of funny, but I really have seen that. I’ve seen people heal themselves in ways that I never imagined possible, so …

Michael Roesslein: I have now too, in the last few years.

Stuff, I would have totally foo-foo’d out the window before, I’ve like, “Huh, okay, then. That’s a thing.”

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, exactly. We all have to be respected.

Michael Roesslein: And open-minded.

All right. Well, check out the summit, go learn a whole bunch more things, go check out their site.

Thank you so much, Dr. Gordon, this is always fun. Now I have, I took some notes. I have about four other subjects we’ll need to talk about it some day.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s a pleasure to talk to you.

Michael Roesslein: Because there was a lot of spirals we could have gone in there, that we reigned back in. So thank you for doing the summit, too. Thank you for putting that together. And we’ll talk again soon.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Thank you, Michael, so much. Thanks for this. It’s fun to make you think out loud.

Michael Roesslein: Yup, it is.

Biotoxin Issues, Complex Chronic Illness, Eric Gordon MD, Events, Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Video Blogs

Chronic Inflammation and the Important Cycle of the Cell Danger Response with Dr. Eric Gordon

In this episode of the Natural Evolution Podcast with Michael Roesslein, Dr. Eric Gordon discuss the details of chronic inflammation in tandem with chronic illness. As we break down the very important cycle of cell danger response – including the role of the mitochondria – we talk about ways we can support our resilient bodies with personalized care.

If you don’t stress the system, you don’t know where the weak things are. Then when you really need them, they’re going to fail on you.

It’s just like what they do when they want to make sure a car is going to run well – they drive it fast.

Dr. Eric Gordon, Season 2 Episode 18, the natural evolution Podcast

Play Video

The second part of this 2-part series is available for listening now! Listen to episode 19 to explore Mycotoxins and Immune Responses with Eric Gordon, MD.

To learn more about current thoughts about mycotoxins, be sure to sign up for your complimentary pass to the Mycotoxins and Chronic Illness Summit 2.0, where Eric Gordon, MD, Nafysa Parpia, ND, and Jaimie Kunkle, ND host over 50 experts in the field, including GMA’s biological dentist, Alireza Panahpour, DDS.

Podcast Transcript

Michael Roesslein: And we are live, I am here today. This is going to be really fun, I’m excited. We just talked for a half hour before we even came on the air. I am joined by Dr. Eric Gordon. Dr. Gordon, thanks for being here today.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Pleasure, thank you for having me, Michael.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, and it’s fun. Dr. Gordon is actually our doctor. He’s the one that we’ve worked with, with Mire and her multiple autoimmune, and who knows what else conditions over the last couple years. So it’s really, really fun to have you here. And maybe we’ll talk about that, maybe we won’t, but it’s fun to connect and talk in a way that’s not around something awful that’s going on. So, much better to connect this way than when she was in a flare.

Michael Roesslein: So for those who don’t know, Dr. Gordon is the president of the Gordon Medical Research Center, which is in the San Francisco Bay area and the founder and owner of Gordon Medical Associates, which specializes in complex chronic illness. In addition to clinical practice of over 30 years, Dr. Gordon is engaged in clinical research and has created a series of medical symposia bringing together leading international medical researchers and cutting-edge clinicians focused on chronic fatigue syndrome, Lyme disease, autoimmune diseases, and autism among others.

In 2016, he was co-author with Dr. Robert Naviaux on a groundbreaking study: Metabolic Features of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. Dr. Gordon is also the medical advisor to Tec Bioscience and GMRC, which is a collection site for Lyme Disease Biobank. So lung disease, autoimmune disease, autism, chronic fatigue, mold, which we’re probably going to talk about in another interview. These are the heavy hitters of chronic disease. These are… When she was working with health clients about five years ago, when somebody listed at least one of those things on their intake form, I knew I had to go find somebody like yourself to help out because these are different, but similar in the means that they’re all very chronic and complex illness, right? Like we’re not talking about simple things here. So I guess we were going to start with really just setting the stage of, what is the difference between chronic disease and chronic illness and acute disease, and we can kind of go from there.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, thank you. And I just want to clarify one important thing is, I always like to say the paper with Dr. Naviaux, we supply the patients, he supplied the brains.

Michael Roesslein: Okay, important distinction.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, no, no. Really, I have spent my life trying to understand biochemistry and Bob, Dr. Naviaux, he’s just one of those rare individuals who has somehow managed to keep it. He used to keep it in his brain and I just go, I’m in awe, because it’s a beautiful thing.

Michael Roesslein: I’ve read some of his work and everything with the cell danger response has really changed the entire way that we see chronic disease, at least to me, in the last five years with that information. Which we’re going to talk about a lot [crosstalk 00:03:30]

Dr. Eric Gordon: And we’re going to go into that because this is the thing is, I’m going to tell you, I have been treating… I started off in medicine in 1980. So I started in hospital work and I had always been interested in what in those days we called alternative medicine. But after medical school and residency, I couldn’t believe that, that stuff could possibly work in these really sick people. So I just stayed in the hospital world for about 10 years, but got more and more frustrated with, yes, we could save people’s lives, but they didn’t do so well after. And that’s where I started to realize that yeah, they had the pneumonia or the heart attack or a car accident, it was wow, we could do a lot.

Dr. Eric Gordon: But six months later when they still were not back to normal, I couldn’t do much. And that’s what got me to go back to my earlier love of working in what then we called alternative, now people call integrated of it, functional and this and that. But anyway, it’s just looking in my way of thinking about it, it’s just trying to solve a problem instead of getting the cookbook. Because when you’re treating acute medicine, people kind of act the same. When the body is broken immediately, a bullet wound, barring, huge differences in body mass, is all kind of treated the same.

Michael Roesslein: Heart attack.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, the same [crosstalk 00:05:13] Yeah, pneumonia. You got this bug, we give you that antibiotic. We might give you a little more, a little less, depending on your size or your kidney function, but still it’s the same thing. And so it’s cookbook and it’s a really important cookbook, but it falls apart in chronic illness. And that’s because in chronic illness, the issue is not the trigger as much as it is you. Your body’s response to the illness, okay?

in the first event, the bullet is the problem. But six months later that’s been removed, it’s how your body has reorganized itself, how it has healed and is healing. That’s what actually, Dr. Naviaux, he’s not… Don’t think he’s the only one coining the term, but he liked the term of the black box of healing. It’s this, we do all these steps and then we wait for the body to actually heal.

And what we have to do in chronic illness is, look at the triggers they’re important. Whether it be infection, toxicity, genetic predisposition, those are the things we all have to look at that. But at the end of the day, we have to really see how your body is dancing, what chemicals you are making that are slightly different than other people’s, what your symptoms are and how you respond to therapies. And that’s what’s frustrating for people who have chronic illness, because most of us still are working with a model that, I’ve got this problem and you should have the answer.

Michael Roesslein: The same answer for everybody with a [inaudible 00:07:01]

Dr. Eric Gordon: And the same answer for everyone. Or you come to my clinic and I’ve got ABC to do, and it better work. And that is where I think many people with chronic illness get very frustrated is they go to do doctors who are just amazing at what they do. But if you don’t fit their paradigm, if you don’t fit their story, you don’t do very well, and then you think that they’re bad or [inaudible 00:07:31] or that they’re all wrong. And they’re not, it’s just that if you have mold problems and go to a doctor who specializes in mold toxicity, well, that’s great. But if you have mold problems, but your real issue is an infection, it’s not going to work so well. And vice versa, that’s the big thing.

And now we have the mast cell activation world. And again, mast cell is a huge problem, but if that’s the only thing you treat and you haven’t looked to what might be tickling the immune system to cause it, you’re not going to get very far. But if mast cell is your big issue and you try to treat somebody’s Lyme disease, which may be the underlying trigger, you’re not going to get very far either. So anyway, chronic illness is complex because by the time it gets to become chronic, you’ve got a few things playing, usually.

Michael Roesslein: Against the body, as much as the toxin or the stress or the thing, it’s the body’s [inaudible 00:08:38] system responding in a way. I think a lot of the public first heard about this with COVID because the word cytokines storm became like a news headline overnight when COVID first kicked off and people became aware that the belief was that it wasn’t the pathogen that was causing a lot of the damage, it was the body’s response to the pathogen, and over response to the pathogen, an uncontrolled response, right?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Absolutely. And that is the nature of chronic illness. It’s just that it’s usually a slower burn.

Michael Roesslein: That’s over years versus a few days.

Dr. Eric Gordon: A few days, right. Instead of a cytokine storm, you have a cytokine light mist.

Michael Roesslein: Forever.

Dr. Eric Gordon: That doesn’t go away. And that’s the thing, you live in some areas, you get rainstorms a few months a year and then it’s dry like if you’re in California. If you’re on East Coast, you get rain, you never know when it’s going to happen.

Michael Roesslein: A cytokine mist, that’s going to be the name of this episode. So it’s definitely a thousand cuts, and the thousand cuts like change the way your physiology functions. It makes things dysfunctional.

Dr. Eric Gordon: And that’s where… One of the things that keep invoking the good Dr. Naviaux because one of his big points that I have sometimes fought against is that, we have to kind of rebalance the systematic response. Because I still find lots of people if we find the toxin or the bug and we actually can get rid of it, the body then can reestablish its own balance point again. The immune system can go back to being the normal ebb and flow. And I think that… And Bob’s point is that, just like a good natural path is that let’s reestablish the terrain. Let’s try to get that important day-night cycling back to sleep. Because so many people when they’ve been ill for a while, they lose their circadian rhythm and that goes.

Michael Roesslein: Which is then a self-perpetuating-

Dr. Eric Gordon: Self-perpetuating inflammation like when your security rhythm is off. Again, some people can compensate. There are people who stay up all night and work all day and do just fine. But most of us that’s a stress.

Michael Roesslein: I am not one of those people. [inaudible 00:11:10]

Dr. Eric Gordon: No, me either. I wish I was, I’ve always wanted to be the five-hour night person, unfortunately not.

Michael Roesslein: I-sleep-when-I’m-dead person is going to be dead a lot sooner than I am. So probably, but so-

You mentioned inflammation and I mentioned cytokine storm, which is inflammation. People familiar with inflammation, it’s the red skin, it’s the swelling, it’s the heat, it’s the [inaudible 00:11:39] And that’s usually if it’s that visible red skin, swelling, heat, you have some sort of acute situation, but this happens chronically in chronic disease cases, right? This chronic inflammation.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yes. Well, think of it… COVID is a great example, COVID is perfect in a way because this is something people are really aware of is we have long COVID and the vaccines reactions, okay?

Which are both perfect examples of the cell danger response [inaudible 00:12:15] So let me sort of tie this together with one story is, as you said is that, first sign of infection that people know about is, redness, pain, swelling, and we say loss of function. That is like the body’s first response to injury. And that’s when neutrophils, the most primitive part, not the most primitive part, but actually, well, one of the first step when we call the innate immune system comes in. These are spike blood cells that come in and quickly at the first site of injury and-

Michael Roesslein: Kind of indiscriminately, they’re not very into… It’s… like the antibody system, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: They’re there before, yeah, they come in like Day 1. And one of the things that in long, not in long COVID, but in that when people get really sick with COVID, when the cytokine storm have is that we find normally after you’ve been sick for, five, six, seven because usually this happens at Day 7 to 10 in COVID, most infections by that time, the neutrophils are fairly have gotten lower. The neutrophils spike the first day, two, three days then they start to go down and you start seeing more lymphocytes. Well, one of the ways to tell that people are really sick with COVID is that Day 7, their neutrophils are still high relative to their lymphocytes.

Michael Roesslein: So the body hasn’t shifted from that innate response?

Dr. Eric Gordon: That first guess. Right, yeah. We call it the acquired immune system is the lymphocytes, the T cells and B cells. And they tend to come in and at the same time, they’re more adapt at just targeting a cell that is displaying a protein that says danger, I’m sick.

Michael Roesslein: Oh, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: The neutrophil will often show up things around it too, and just create a lot of inflammation. The lymphocytes, the T cell and B cells tend to be a little bit more discriminating in what they attack and how they attack.

Less collateral damage.

Michael Roesslein: Less collateral damage, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: They require a lot more feedback from the cell before they kill it, they require two or three signals to go. This is a sick cell.

Michael Roesslein: The neutrophil don’t ask questions?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Not as many, no.

They respond to pattern recognition. The innate immune system, that first step will respond. It’s a more or less like going after everything that looks like a dog. Well the acquired immune system knows it only wants to go after, let’s say, German Shepherds, it’s going to leave the Poodles alone.

Michael Roesslein: Okay got you.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s that simple on some levels, and that’s why it’s so dangerous when that innate immune system stays upregulated. But that’s the cytokine storm, that’s what can kill you quickly. That’s still not chronic disease. Chronic disease is usually when the dysfunction is in the acquired immune system, the T and B cells are not working as well.

The innate immune system is still activated sometimes because those T and B cells, many of the T cells are T-regulatory cells that will tamp things down, that will let the body know, okay, it’s time to relax. As we spoke in the beginning when we went on air, the simplest thing, a way of thinking about the immune system is that it’s good it for the immune system to get angry, but it should stay angry very shortly, just like a person. It’s fine to get angry in the moment.

Michael Roesslein: As soon as the thing that made it angry is gone, it needs to be able to calm down.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It needs to calm down and resolve and reestablish communication and relationship. So if you stay angry, it makes for a difficult life for you and all around you and it’s the same thing in the immune system. Basically, if you would… Psychological concepts apply to the immune system perfectly. They really do. There’s no difference… One of my terms for some people who are so inclined to think psychologically about things is I call it the neurotic tendency of the body. If you get stuck in a habit, pattern of response, you then develop a chronic disease. And whatever that habit pattern is, and I’m not talking about just psychologically, just your immune system begins to stay stuck. So most-

Michael Roesslein: And maybe some main culprits for causing it to do that? As you mentioned infections, there’s certain types of infections that can affect this-

Dr. Eric Gordon: The thing about infections is that sometimes they can be persistent and sometimes they can just leave traces behind, they keep the immune system going. So, interesting examples, of course, Lyme, Bartonella, Babesia are big three that we think about a lot as chronic infections. And then of course the DNA viruses, Epstein–Barr, HH-6, cytomegalovirus, those are the big players that people have often related to kind that may be having something to do with chronic fatigue.

And then probably in about a third of people they do, because if… But all of these there’s confusing states. Is that in sometimes the bug is still there actively reproducing. We see that a lot in Lyme where people can be sick for years, but if we actually are able to kill the Lyme, a lot of symptoms resolve. And maybe a third of people with Epstein–Barr, if you actually keep them on antivirals at high doses for two or three years, about a third people resolve, now that’s a big commitment so we don’t do that often.

But this fellow Dr. Lerner, who has since passed away, did that a lot in the early 2000s. And he had really good data, but it’s only about a third. But what we see, I think even more so is that parts of the bug remain, and COVID is a great example. There’s a fellow Dr. Bruce Patterson, who is doing both research and helping us treat people with, quote unquote, long COVID and vaccine reactions. And he’s demonstrating that a piece of the spike protein, the S1 component of the spike protein, for those of you who really keeping up with spike proteins.

Michael Roesslein: Hey, I’ve never seen lay persons nerd out on biochemistry as much as I have in the last two years. So you’ve got non-medical and science professionals out there that are very well-versed now on the term spike protein, and probably even on S1, which if you had told me that a few years ago, that would become a thing I wouldn’t have been able to guess would cause that. Pandemic wouldn’t have been at the top of my list, but yes, I think you’re speaking a language people understand.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, I too, I never listened to podcasts before COVID and now I’ve become addicted because there’s just so much information out there and there’s no other way to get it as quickly. And depending on who I listen to, I can like see their bias points. But anyway, but they all have good information, you just have to know where they’re coming from.

But so getting here, Dr. Patterson, he’s somebody who was doing research years ago with dengue. Because dengue people know, a very common connection in Central America, South America, has a persistent form, a chronic form, but they’ve never been able to find the bug left, it’s not reproducing anymore. And he found that pieces of it were stuck in monocytes. Monocytes are part of the innate immune system.

Michael Roesslein: The last one.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, the monocyte is also called a macrophage when it’s in your tissue. When it’s floating around the bloodstream, it’s a monocyte and once it slips into the tissue, it becomes a macrophage just because that always confused me anyway. So anyway, but these one subset of monocytes called atypical and that’s just their name, can actually eat the spike, the S1 protein. Because the S1 part of the spike gets released when the virus gets in, goes into the cell. And that S1 piece, when some monocytes take it up, they’re not able to destroy it. Most of us they can, but in some people they just can’t.

And so that protein sits in there and it causes the spike, it causes the monocyte to stay in an inflammatory state. And when that monocyte then binds to a blood vessel, because it floats around the blood vessels, it creates local inflammation. And because this is an [inaudible 00:22:02] situation, normally the monocyte would basically die. Most of your white bloods cells, except some of your T and B cells don’t live long. I mean they live days usually and they constant turnover, but these atypical monocytes, once they have a spike protein can be persistent and they can trigger persistent inflammation. COVID is gone, there’s… The fact that there are-

Michael Roesslein: Just a piece of a protein that’s stuck in a monocyte that’s causing the monocyte to cause tissue inflammation or cell inflammation.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Cell inflammation, which can causes an inflammation. This goes back to what we haven’t discussed, but we should mention is something called sickness behavior. Sickness behavior is what happens when the cell knows that there’s something wrong. It’s basically fatigue, social isolation, decreased appetite, fever. These are all things that your immune causes and when you’re ill. And it actually even happens in single-cell organisms. When an amoeba is infected with a virus or a toxin, it will send off chemicals, which is related to the cell danger response, which will get to in a while, that will signal other bugs to stay away from it.

Michael Roesslein: So that they don’t get sick.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, there’s danger here, stay away. This is sort of how the system works. Animals do this, we do that, we signal danger and then others go away. So anyway-

Michael Roesslein: These monocytes that have this S1 piece of the spike protein in it, they do not signal to stay away from it?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Oh, no. Well, the thing is that their job is to signal inflammation that there’s danger. And so when they’re on that vascular bed, they have the… Now normally, they are signaling on that vascular bed that there’s danger. They usually picked up that signal from the endothelial cell, from the cell [inaudible 00:24:24] But this time they’re showing up with this thing already there, and so now they’re sending out a false signal in a way.

But that causes other immune cells to come and start the… Once the danger signal goes off-

Michael Roesslein: The case of a dog. When they trigger-

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. When the fire alarm goes off, the fire trucks come.

Michael Roesslein: That’s happening in the vascular lining, so that’s why long COVID. And even now, the COVID seems to have switched a little, I didn’t mean to turn this into an interview, we weren’t going to talk about that. But at the beginning, it was all chest.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Lung.

Michael Roesslein: It was all lungs and coughing. And then it seemed now or Delta, at least like before, now it’s weird, but vascular it’s more… It switched or maybe it was always vascular was just presenting in the lungs, but vascular now is the focus and endothelial damage and things to do with blood circulation and clotting and such. So it makes sense. It’s incredibly they were able to figure out what you just described so quickly.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, because he was already on it, it’s the old story. He was already looking.

Michael Roesslein: So somebody already discovered it with a different disease?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Exactly, and he… I’m assuming that’s what it was, I don’t know for sure. But it makes sense.

Michael Roesslein: Oh, yeah, that’s kind of an advantage. The idea was there already to look for disease.

Dr. Eric Gordon: He was already looking at Lyme that way too, is that he found a glycoprotein. Because the big question with Lyme is that, what we call chronic Lyme disease is a whole other… Is there’s a religious war in America and all over actually over whether chronic Lyme exists or just post-Lyme syndrome. And that’s whole other talk we can get into, but it’s that same problem is there are some people who actually have chronic Lyme, if you treat the bug, it will get better. And then there’s a lot of people who know the problem is the immune system is overactivated to something the Lyme either did to the system or as Dr. Patterson and other people think, maybe there’s still a glycoprotein left over from the Lyme that’s triggering the system. But because we have these mixed pictures and again, medicine likes to think in terms of monolithic stories, there’s one story for everyone.

Michael Roesslein: Always has to be this.

Dr. Eric Gordon: And it’s just not, it’s multiple. But getting back to the COVID story just briefly, the inflammation in the lungs was, yeah, it’s always been microemboli from… In the beginning of COVID, I felt very alone because I was in Marin County and we didn’t have much COVID here. The first year it was like everybody just took to ground, it was like they didn’t go out of the house. And so we had very little COVID and I felt a little deprived. I felt like I missed, I wanted to be treating people.

But now thankfully since everybody got bored and started traveling, we’ve had plenty of COVID. And what I saw early on with, if you actually got blood tests on people in that first week which wasn’t being done, you could see inflammation, you could see clotting abnormalities in people who weren’t even very sick, in people who are almost asymptomatic. And I got D-dimers on and they were two or three times normal. Now, D-dimer is not a great test, they don’t really jump up and down until it’s five times normal, but it shows you that you’re clotting and your body is having to break down clot. And this was in people who had no symptoms. So-

Michael Roesslein: Then it makes sense that the people that have the comorbidities that are related to difficulties with that to begin with or something to do with blood flow or circulation or clotting, or like high blood sugar and obesity, like those conditions, it’s like they were starting with the bucket mostly full to begin with, or whatever analogy you’d want to use, behind the eight-ball. They already were struggling in the area in which the COVID infection tends to cause the most problems.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, yeah, and irritate. Yeah, exactly, that’s a-

Michael Roesslein: It’s a gasoline on a fire they already had.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah.

Michael Roesslein: Versus starting a new fire.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, that’s the whole thing with the vaccine reactions is that, it’s, if you have a tendency to hypercoagulability or to mast cell activation, you have a higher chance of having a problem. And we don’t want to go down that rabbit hole, I can just say is that vaccines are great if you’re older. No question they save lives, they’re worth doing, don’t be foolish. It’s not just a flu. But if you’re 30, the odds ratio of what it’s going to do for you changes. Anyway, it’s the great problem of, okay, we won’t go into the public health debates. So getting that-

Michael Roesslein: So still falls under the same category or same of thing for everyone same thing [crosstalk 00:29:27]

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And in public health, you can’t make the distinctions between individuals, you see. And what’s wrong with medicine today is that they don’t want doctors to use our judgment anymore. They act as though we know it, that everything is-

Michael Roesslein: They follow the playbook.

Dr. Eric Gordon: And you can follow the playbook. And again, we said in the beginning, yeah, you can, if it’s acute heart attack, but not such a good idea a week later, or the month before, when you could have been tailoring your therapy for what that person’s problem were because they’re different. And so anyway, so we have this acute versus chronic. So here we are set up perfectly.

Most people who get COVID have minimal to no symptoms, a lot of people have symptoms, and most of them do just fine. But what percentage, whether it’s 10 or 20% of people are being left with persistent symptoms, that we still don’t know because our data collection is so terrible, and that’s because their body responds differently to inflammation. And of some number of them are going to have this persistent, this monocytes carrying the spike protein. I don’t know if that’s in everybody, but it’s in a lot-

Michael Roesslein: It’s something, it’s a factor that’s been identified that’s contributing to chronic inflammatory state.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. And to be fair and they are trying to get that test out there, but we can see the pattern in the cytokines. And I said, Dr. Patterson has this from in-cell diagnostics, I think it is, and where you can measure about, I think it’s 14 cytokines and you can see patterns of inflammation. Now these patterns are not totally specific to COVID because I’ve been doing them in a lot of people with long-term illnesses and we see similar patterns, but he has some interesting therapies that I think are really good.

But bringing this back to chronic disease is that we have to remember where we’re trying to understand chronic illness is to, you have to look at, okay, what are the possible triggers or environmental stressors that I’ve been exposed to? And what are the genetic and environmental tendencies I have? If you are a person who every time you got a mosquito bite, you kind of blew up, well, you really should look to the mast cell world. There’s probably some element of that happening with you if you get a rash every time you go out in the sun or if you get exposed to some stress. Yeah, that part of your immune system is probably a little hyper.

If you’re somebody who gets recurrent sinus infections or recurrent skin infections, well, maybe your IgGs aren’t that good, I mean that part of your immune system is a little off. There are many hints, but basically when you have chronic illness, you have to be willing to put like all the cards on the table, so to speak, and not decide that because my cousin did mercury detox and got better, that, that’s going to work for me.

Now, it’s not a bad idea but you got to look and see before you start really doing a strong detox. [inaudible 00:33:11] gentle detox and see how your body feels. Because if you start to detox and get a lot sicker and your symptoms really flare, well, whoa! So your problem, or one of your problems is that the detox pathways are not open. And high on my list there, of course, is glutathione not working well, methylation not working well, and there are ways that you can evaluate that before you hurt yourself.

If on the other hand you sauna and you take a few binders and a few oral heavy metal binders and you, it feels good and you start to feel better, you could probably be pretty sure that those systems are working. There’s always exceptions, but these are just of rules of thumb. But the most important thing is just go slow in whatever. I see so many people hurt themselves because they read on the internet that-

It can be any environmental toxin that they think is their problem. Whether it be metals, glyphosate, or just or EMFs. Because EMF to me, is an example of again, of a very sensitive system. And that’s often a beautiful human being. Some of the most just wonderful people are just… But they come in sensitive, they fear, they see auras. They can really sense the world, but that’s a gift, but they have to be a little more careful. Those are the people who will definitely not live near self towers or maybe not get the smart meter on their houses.

And well, other people, it’s not good for them, but they can tolerate it. It’s a little bit like head, like playing soccer. Some people can head the ball for like 30 years and they don’t have any problems. Other people do that a few times and they start getting headaches and if they keep doing it, they might wind up with early dementia when they’re 50. It’s we’re different. And so anyway I’m-

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, that’s another inconvenient fact that doesn’t align with the way that the medical system wants to work. Is that not everybody is going to respond to the same factors, the same of contributing to disease, not everybody is going to respond to the same, here’s your mercury detox, here’s your mercury detox, you’re going to feel awesome in a couple weeks, you’re going to feel terrible in 10 days. And that’s just the inconvenient truth of the situation. And I wanted to bring up… Well, we still have a little bit of time. You’d mentioned cell danger response a bunch of times.

We’ve talked about Bob Naviaux’s work. It plays… It’s not a separate thing from what we’re talking about with the chronic inflammation and you mentioned where the body, the cells try to turn, they become socially isolated, they slow down, they do all these different things when they’re sick, just like people do or dogs do or singles, so amoebas do or whatever. Cell dander response is a term that most people in our audience by now over the last few years it’s probably heard before it gets referenced a lot. That is it.

And where does it fall on that?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, let me give you the… I’ll try to be concise. I think the two important components are the cell danger response and mitochondria, because in Dr. Naviaux’s mind, they’re kind of one and the same. So he looks at this cell danger response, he’s broken down into like three components. The initial component is, the cell has is impacted by something, whether toxin or infection, it doesn’t really matter. When that happens, the toxin will tie up some molecules. Like if it’s like many figure, something like mercury will tie up sulfur compounds in the cell, and that will affect what goes into the mitochondria.

If it’s a virus, it will start using nucleotides, like some of the complex proteins for its own to make more viruses. And so suddenly the mitochondria are not getting the level of nutrients of NAD that it usually gets. When it senses that, the mitochondria immediately stop or slow down the production of ATP and it starts taking the ATP and routing it to the self surface where it acts as a communication molecule and says, it’s the first signal that there’s danger here.

Before you start putting antigens on the cell surface, the first thing you do is you put more ATP outside the cell, and that is the cell signal. There are receptors, there are 17 different receptors for various kinds of purines which ATP is one of. Anyway, so that’s the first thing that happens is you… And that’s where the fatigue comes in if it’s body wide because you’re no longer making energy very efficiently. But when it’s in one cell, it’s not making your whole body tired, it can happen just locally. So at that moment, and then oxygen starts to build up in that cell because the mitochondria use up oxygen and make water and carbon. They use the oxygen in the cell to make water and carbon dioxide out of the molecules that get in to the electron transport chain.

And so if they stop doing that, the oxygen concentration in the cell goes up, and that is oxidative, what people often refer to is oxidative stress. But Bob calls it oxidative shielding, because that’s a hint to the cell that then you start turning on genes to create prone-inflammatory molecules, because you’re trying to kill stuff in using inflammation to kill things in the cell that are causing a problem. So that’s that first step.

The second step in the cell danger response is when you now have taken care of the threat, but you’re beginning to rebuild the cell. You got to make new cells, you have to call stem cells in, you have to… And at that point, the mitochondria has switched over to what we call Warburg metabolism or where it’s still using sugar for energy, burning sugar directly and not using your electron transport chain to make a lot of energy, but it’s making some. And during this time, this is what you get cell growth, you’re getting cells to regrow.

And then in the third step, the cells are back to normal, but they now have to recommunicate. Because in the first step of the cell danger response, your cell membrane stiffens, okay. You shield because you don’t want that virus to get in, you don’t want more things to come in and we don’t want more things to go out. So I hope I haven’t confused people, but basically-

Michael Roesslein: No, it just puts up a wall like a stronger wall. It already has a wall, but it makes the wall stronger.

Dr. Eric Gordon: But the membrane-

Michael Roesslein: So whatever is causing the problem is if there’s more of it outside, it can’t get in and whatever’s inside, can’t get out to get the other cells.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, exactly. It’s just this first step is you change the cellular metabolism. That’s the basic step right there. The mitochondria change and they send signals to the genes and the nucleus to change because when you change the level of methylation and acetylation, so you have less methyl groups and less acetyl groups that are floating around or more, they get in and the histones, which control the start and stop signals more or less for DNA reading.

So that’s how the mitochondria control the genes. That’s how the small molecules control genes by usually affecting histones. There’s multiple other methods, but that’s the main one. And so that just tells you, so you start turning on more… Initially you turn on your oxidative genes that create a lot of stress, and then you start to turn on the antioxidant genes. When everything is working, this is a nice ebb and flow system. The NF-κB, you’ve got your Nrfs and then you’ve got your NF-κBs. It’s like ebb and flow, turn on oxidant stress, and then you get that reciprocal antioxidant.

And that’s why, basically most of the herbs we use are actually pro-oxidants. They go in there and they stimulate a little oxidant stress, and then we make antioxidants. Exercise is stress, the only exercise that really… If you really want to like make yourself healthy, you need to actually kill a bunch of cells doing it. If you don’t, you don’t get very far. That’s quite… Aerobic exercise or anaerobic, doesn’t matter, but you need to push a little bit to really get cell regeneration. And that’s the cell danger response basically is that cycle of injured cell, get rid of the injured cells rebuild and then get that system to communicate better again. That third step is really important.

And what happens in aging is we get stuck with cells that are left in the second step where they’re kind of growing, but they’re not really communicating well with the outside world. Those are senescent cells. Those are the things that lead to cancer and probably to scarring, heart disease, probably diabetes, where you have pancreatic cells, or other parts of the body where, they’re not going back to fully normal. They’ve been injured by something, whether it’s toxin or infection and they don’t complete this cycle. When we injure a cell, it normally goes through this nice cycle, you go in there, there’s a little inflammation. If the cell is basically healthy, the inflammation just stimulates that it repairs its inner workings, it restores its mitochondria.

Because as we age, we lose mitochondria. And if we can stress the mitochondria to a certain point, they actually will get stronger because you’ll wind up kind of getting rid of old stuff. I’m trying to think of a better analogy for this, but well, it’s just like preventive maintenance in a house. You begin to have some rotting wood, and you go in there and you take it out and you replace it with new wood, your house is going to stay wrong. If you haven’t stressed the house to find that place where the wood is rotted, then the rocks-

Michael Roesslein: It could all rot and you would never know until it collapses

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. And it’s the same thing in the cell, in the healthy way of the cell danger response working in everyday life is that when you get a… That’s probably why it’s good to get exposed to viruses or small amounts of toxins or exercise. Because then you stress and then you wind up… It’s good to kill off the weak mitochondria or to repair the weakened part of the mitochondria. If it doesn’t get stressed, it doesn’t know that it’s got a weak spot.

So that’s why we need stress. That’s why we need low-grade infections. That’s why we… Because we were designed to interact with this natural world. Viruses aren’t bad things, a big percentage of our DNA is made up of retroviral. What we used to think is garbage, but it’s information.

Michael Roesslein: I’ve always got a kick out of that. I learned about that about 10 years ago, the term junk DNA and that most of our DNA is junk, it doesn’t do anything. And the first I was in a master’s program in physiology when I got taught that in 2008 at University of South Florida. And I was the only one that started looking around the room and being like, that can’t be true. There’s no way that that’s true. There’s no way that 90% of our DNA doesn’t do anything. It’s completely absurd. I bet it just doesn’t do anything and this is all childish. And then someone else was like, “Yeah, that’s probably it.” And then everybody disagree that, that’s the… It’s like embarrassing for humanity that, that’s ever… Sorry, I get agitated with the concept.

It implies that nature is dumb.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. Well, no, no you are doing what I think is what smart people have done all through medicine. And I’m not always in that category of smart people because instead of… You are just doing that basic of thinking from first principles. And the one of the first principles is the body doesn’t do much unless it’s useful. Just like you don’t make stomach acid to cause ulcers, you spend a lot of energy to make stomach acid, it’s probably is important. And that same thing, you don’t conserve a whole lot of very expensive real estate called DNA for nothing.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, it was just absurd. And then it started to come out like, oh actually it’s this and it’s this, and it does this. Just like tonsils and appendix and all those other things that I was told didn’t matter. That was earlier, I think they figured that out.

When I was [inaudible 00:48:47] What is this? Oh, it’s just some extra part you have, you don’t need that. They just cut that out. I’m like, what really? The body makes parts it doesn’t need? Are you guys sure this is the story? But any who, sorry to just take that to this direction, but-

Dr. Eric Gordon: No, it’s not, it’s that important part of like thinking and understanding that this is a process. And just like this concept of oxidative stress, so many people are gulping tons of antioxidants and it’s like very simple. If you take a whole lot of vitamin C before you work out, you’re not going to build muscles well. It’s [crosstalk 00:49:27]

Michael Roesslein: It prevents the breakdown of the other cells or bigger cells?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yes. You want to stress them. You want to make sure that those weak points are noticed by the body and you get rid of them. And then you build new ones. If you don’t stress the system, you don’t know where the weak things are. And then when you really need them, they’re going to fail on you. It’s just like what they do when they want to make sure a car is going to run well. They drive it hard because sure, almost any vehicle you can slap together is going to run fine at five miles an hour on a smooth road, but let’s see what happens at 80 on a bump. I mean when the wheel goes to the… Okay, well that’s what you got to do with your body. It’s the same thing. Yeah, it’s nice to live out as a Sunday drive, but if you don’t stress it, you’re not going to do well. And it will be stressed because that’s life.

So the cell danger response, I feel so bad because I know it’s such a beautiful concept and it has so many pieces to it and I can never manage to put it eloquently enough is so it sounds, I feel like there’s clarity. Because it’s like they say, when you know something really well, you can make it simple.

Michael Roesslein: I love the things I can explain clearly and the things I can’t, but I understood your explanation.

It alters the metabolism, the mitochondria makes less energy, it builds a stronger wall around the outside and it puts up… There’s more oxygen than in the cell and around the cell.

Dr. Eric Gordon: And that’s Phase 1. That’s Phase 1 of the cell danger. That’s what you do, and that first moments of injury. Now, if you-

Michael Roesslein: And that’s where it gets stuck, right? Like the-

Dr. Eric Gordon: It can get stuck there. It can get stuck there and that will make a non-healing wound in a way. Something like gout, is an example of when you’re stuck in CDR1, you can’t turn off that neutrophil response. But luckily, most of the time we get pretty well through CDR1. Most of the chronic diseases are more in CDR2 and 3, where we’re stuck in half-finished. We’ve turned off the big noise and now we’re rebuilding tissue, but we still have to modulate the rebuilding. And the most important part is to reestablish normal communication. Because like your gut which turns over quickly, you can massacre that lots of times.

But brain, you can’t do that that often because in the brain, in nerves, muscle, and endocrine tissue, the architecture of the tissue has a lot of the information how each nerve sits one on top of the other and it’s not just how they communicate with their spatial orientation. That’s where repair in those areas is a lot trickier. Something like the liver is well designed for constant repair, and the intestines and skin.

Michael Roesslein: It’s how I survived my twenties.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, right, you could… That liver-

Michael Roesslein: Liver is very resilient.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, the liver is amazing. The liver is amazing. The brain is… I hope the brain is better than we think. I’m working on the brain repair now, I’ve reached that time. I’m thankfully older than I look and it’s that time in life when you really should attend to repair early. That is one of the things I always remind people. I always like to say, you get the first 50 years free, you can kind of do what you want, but in all ways-

Michael Roesslein: I started with the brain around 38, so I’m ahead of the curve. I started to learn a lot of the functional neurology, like neurodegenerative stuff, concussion syndromes, I’ve had a lot of concussions. I used to drink a lot, I’ve had a lot of risk factors for neurodegeneration, so I started the last few years with a lot of brain things. I feel like that’s one thing I’ve gotten right.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, and that’s great, it could be… No, the younger you start, the better your odds are, many people feel. But a nice thing has shown that the body really is more forgiving than we knew. It just requires work. And for those of us that… The problem with men is denial, that’s why basically most of the people I see are women. I actually kind of really don’t like seeing men because they’re not really interested until they’re half-dead or three quarters.

Michael Roesslein: [crosstalk 00:54:38] audience is mostly women and people will ask me, why do you think that is? Because I started this company with a partner, Joel, and I was mid thirties, he is a little older than me, but we’re like early-mid-thirties guys. We started this health business around health educational things. When we sent out our first survey to find out who our audience was, our average person was about a 55-year-old woman. And we’re like, how is that the thing? And he goes, “It’s because guys don’t do things for their health and they have to be dead before they talk to anybody.” And usually it’s the wife that’s finding out the things to help the husband in the first place before he’s even ready to do things. So, sorry guys, you’re not very good at this.

Dr. Eric Gordon: No, they’re terrible. But that’s why we have war because we all think the bull is going to hit the other guy.

I have so many, what I call toys, so many interventions for health. And ask me how many I have used over the last 20 years and how often, it’s embarrassing. I can say, yeah, so I understand men, we just think we’re immortal and we do not understand, no matter how many of my friends have dropped dead [inaudible 00:56:03] So, but-

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, [inaudible 00:56:06] happen to them. But before we go, I just want to jump in a little bit to… We’ve talked a lot about chronic disease, chronic inflammation, how these things can happen with certain types of infections. Also, the cell danger response overview of how that happens and what happens with it and some of the results of that. And you mentioned, starting slow, starting small, that it’s not always the same things for everyone. But with chronic inflammation and chronic disease and some of these things in place, there’s no uniform answer to this, but where do people start? What’s the…

These things, the good is a lot of this can be reversed and corrected and the damage from it can be healed, but what are the foundations or basics of that? What would be a… Aside from the more complex individual things that obviously require some investigative work and some looking-at case study and history and all of that, but there are some things that generally will benefit most people, I would guess. And I just want to leave a little bit of-

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. No, the simplest thing is, first of all, don’t give up hope, get some hope. Put hope into the equation. And that’s-

Michael Roesslein: You guys, before we went on air, I think I mentioned that, and it was before we went on air, our first appointment with Dr. Gordon with Mira was the peak of how severe her flare was in 2020, it was pretty bad. And his first, I’ll call a prescription, was that he was going to write a note that allowed her to go on leave from work for, I think, it started at six weeks. We ended up doing about three months, but it was six weeks. And just the relief and the feeling that someone understood her, because her endocrinologist and rheumatologist, these people had told her that there’s no evidence that you’re taking time off her healthcare conditions. So they were denying the truth of her reality that she needed to rest. And our first appointment, Dr. Gordon said, “We’re going to get you out of work for a little while.” And that was step one.

And she didn’t have to work again for a few days. So she hadn’t even yet hit the point where she’d had an unscheduled day off. She didn’t… There’d been no time off, and within two days, her pain level was half just from believing that she had somebody who understood and was on her side, and to know that the relief was coming, that she didn’t have to go to work in a couple days, half of her pain, her pain reduced in half with no other interventions. And I know some people out there might be rolling their eyes or saying, “Yeah, whatever, sure.” I used to be that person, and I’ve now witnessed more things in the last few years with her and with some other work I’ve done that, that’s as real as anything else.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, just to emphasize, the cell danger response is the immune response. And the immune response is controlled just like everything our complex bodies are by our brains. Now people… Well, basically when you go to sleep at night within, I forgot how many, within seconds, every cell in your body decreases energy production by like 25%. So this little [inaudible 00:59:54]

Instantly controls the immune system. And so it’s the deep centers, the limbic system, reptilian brain, that really is like kind of probably most in charge, but that is modified by the cortex. And again, not perfectly because if it was perfect, we could all just meditate and heal. And that doesn’t work because just one other aside, this is like my ADD, but I have to remind people, like I’m not saying that meditation and relaxation is going to heal everything because some of the most…

I always go back to Ramakrishna who is this great Indian Saint in the early part of the 1900s and he died at 40 with like terrible throat cancer. And this man lived in Samadhi at the time. So it doesn’t mean you’re going to live forever, but it’s an important component. It’s just a very… If you can begin to find some way to have hope because you can’t… It’s very hard to relax when you’re in chronic pain or distress.

Michael Roesslein: I highly doubt, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s like learning to meditate in the midst of severe pain. Can be done, but it’s like learning how to swim when you’re drowning. It doesn’t usually happen, but you have to start. But if you can start with hope, if you can just begin with that step, that you’re going to find an answer somewhere and you have to understand that you might not find the answer quickly, but hope allow it. And I have to… I’ve seen a lot of people get better, I’ve seen a lot of people not. And usually it’s because we don’t have the answers yet, but the good news in chronic illness is that we’re learning at a rapidly increasing rate. I have patients who I saw in the early 2000s, I just couldn’t help. I was doing the wrong thing but unfortunately they come back. Unfortunately for them, because it means they didn’t get better, and now we can help a lot of them because we keep learning.

And I think that’s the other really hopeful part of this is that, despite medicine has gotten worse on some levels, but on other levels, the amount of information and through the internet, which has been crazy but good, we’re learning. And we keep finding more pieces because you see it’s these individual pieces and the genetic work hasn’t given us the answers we’ve wanted. We all had hoped in the early 2000s the genes would have saved us. You go get the gene-

Michael Roesslein: I remember.

The Human Genome Project was going to save humanity.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It was going to be ABC after that. Well, it hasn’t turned out quite that way, but it has shed some light. And that’s what I want people to understand is that each tool that’s out there sheds light. So don’t give up, first of all, don’t give up hope. And again, toxins, getting back to toxins. In the last five… I’ve always believed that toxicity was an issue, that the environment was huge. But to be honest, I like many doctors paid more lip service to it than I did in reality.

And about five years ago I had a doctor join us, Dr. Parpia, and she’s the naturopath who had done a lot of work, worked briefly with, she worked about a year with Dr. Klinghardt, and worked with this other doctor, Dr. Isaac Eliaz, who has done a lot of work with toxicity. And she’s kind of like amalgamated and added her own twist to it. But most importantly, I’ve seen that when people take the time, sometimes a year even two to detox, the infections often will take care of themselves. Which is funny because I’m a doctor [inaudible 01:04:12] and having to stand back and watch when we remove the crippling toxins-

Michael Roesslein: Kind of taking the sand out of the gas tank.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, exactly. The system goes to work. Now it’s not to say that everything is toxins, but that’s usually an issue. And if you’ve been sick for a while, it’s definitely there because another little story, when you’re sick, you don’t clean the house. And when your body is ill, you store a lot of garbage in. That’s where a lot of that pain comes because that interstitial spaces, these spaces that shouldn’t be filled with anything except a little hyaluronic acid and some nice clear stuff, gets gunky. Because your body, you can’t process it. Your liver and kidneys don’t have the energy or are poisoned, they’re not working as well. And again, they’re not going to show up on you on often, your tests are going to be normal. Your liver function tests are designed to find when the liver is… When you’re actively killing liver cells above normal, above normal levels.

Michael Roesslein: Is that ALT, AST markers, right?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those things are, they’re markers of cell turnover and they’re probably higher because they were 25 was the upper limit of normal for those until about 20 years ago. And now we keep bumping the upper limit of normal luck because that’s our population because we’re poisoning people with all the fructose, and chemicals that we put in. We over-stress the liver. So it’s happening to all of us because we just raise the normal levels. But anyway, so hope and detox, those are the places start.

After that, you really have to be… I feel talk to somebody who can really know the questions. Because if you look on the internet and look at lists, you can find your symptoms are going to look like anything from MS to chronic Lyme-

Michael Roesslein: Oh, I know. When Mira first got sick, I didn’t sleep for weeks. I was on the internet, her first flare reading, every single thing about every single disease that can cause any kind of pain and everything that you can do for it, and we tried to do all of it at once.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. And that’s the thing is that these lists, the body only has so many ways of making noise. You can have chest pain for 10, or probably for 100, but for 10 different ways, you can cough for a million different reasons. Rashes. Rashes, I hate more than anything it’s because, God knows what’s causing the rash. Often detox, but still. So when you make diagnosis by list on the internet, you can make a mess. The reason you go to doctors is not because we know so much, it’s just because we’ve seen so much. It’s pattern recognition and maybe someday AI will get there. At the moment, it’s still not very good because AI is only as good as the information fed into it. And it hasn’t succeeded yet.

Michael Roesslein: If you research it to do something, we don’t know how to do.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. Well, it’s supposed to learn, and maybe if we gave it enough real information, it could. But at the moment, that would require… Anyways, another story, I’m sorry. Talking to me [crosstalk 01:07:40]

Michael Roesslein: You mentioned ADD a minute ago. We’ve done pretty good for two guys with pretty severe ADD on a podcast, I think we stayed focused. I thought about that earlier because what you’ve mentioned and this is a very pro-ADD world, in this podcast and in my speakers. I discovered only a couple years ago, I went through Dr. Gabor Mate’s training for therapists, and reading his books was part of our curriculum and one of them is called Scattered Minds. And he talks about the link between childhood trauma and developmental trauma and attention ADD, ADHD. And it has a checklist in the book for adult presentations of ADD and ADHD. And I was like 28 out of 30. I’m like, I just won this book and I’m like, wait, that explains so much of my life. And I feel better, and I don’t feel like I was a slacker.

But then I thought about that today and you’ve mentioned it to me before. I’m like, man, we’re going to right here and we’re going to stay on track. Unless, we’re going to start talking about like 72 really interesting things. And we only did about 15 really interesting things, so it was good. And we’re going to come back, we’re going to do it again, we’re going to talk about mold.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Okay. In the next podcast we’ll hit the CDR again from the mold perspective.

Michael Roesslein: Sure.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Because it’s such a rich concept, that’s the point. It’s just a rich concept. It helps people understand why they’re not as sick as they think they are.

Autoimmunity, Complex Chronic Illness, Detox and Toxins, Eric Gordon MD, Podcasts

Watch H3O2 -The Missing Link in Chronic Illness

Cultural Anthropologist and Hydration Foundation Founder, Gina Bria, and Wellness Enterprises Founder, Patrick Durkin join Dr. Gordon and Dr. Parpia for a fascinating conversation about the newly discovered 4th phase of water.

Play Video

Disclosure: We were given an Aqua Energizer to try out, and were so pleased with it that we gifted that one to a friend, and purchased another for our own use and became affiliates. It’s our pleasure to provide you with information and tools. Please note that we receive a small commission only when you purchase items after following our *affiliate links. We only share products we use and believe in. We will never share anything with you that we don’t personally use, support, or recommend to our patients.

Highlights

  • What structured water is and why it is vital to our health
  • How structured water hydrates at the cellular level
  • Science behind the effects of structured water on natural immune function & the healing process
  • Ways to naturally produce more structured water in our bodies
  • Some of the top foods to eat to get more structured water into your diet daily
  • Aqua Energizer, the state-of-the-art system, we use ourselves and the technology behind it

The *Aqua Energizer Structured Water Device is the first scientifically verified and certified line of structured water devices in the world. Each unit is hand-assembled from copper, quartz, and minerals.

You can learn more about Gina Bria at www.hydrationfoundation.org. You can send questions to Gina Bria at gina@hydrationfoundation.org and Patrick Durkin at patrick@thewellnessenterprise.com

Q&A with Gina Bria and Patrick Durkin

A: The important thing is for you to love the water you are drinking and you feel hydrated. One of the ways to enhance all water is to structure it with a structured water device like the Aqua Energizer.

A: Structured water devices rearrange molecules; they don’t remove them. The chlorine and fluoride are not removed physically, however, because The Aqua Energizer™ changes the oxidation states of chemicals, it has made the chlorine smell and taste dissipate and even disappear. That’s one of the best benefits of the Aqua Energizer.

Showers and baths are so invigorating and enjoyable and feel like immersing yourself in a waterfall. You can read about the test that was done with the device that shows it renders some toxins inactive and changes the chemistry of water on this link. 

We recommend studying the principles presented by Dr. Emoto and homeopathy to further understand the contention that without structuring water to rearrange molecules, the water will never be safe. We favor structuring water as the most essential element of safe water and only use filtering as an option.This blog answers your question.

A: Charging water with gem stones is an ancient practice. The Wellness Enterprise has structured water devices with quartz crystals the water runs over and you can read more HERE.

They also have gem stone bottles. Shungite is a powerful stone that many have used in water for purification in addition to support with EMFs. 

Autoimmunity, Complex Chronic Illness, Detox and Toxins, Eric Gordon MD, Events, Nafysa Parpia ND, Therapeutic Diet, Video Blogs

What Is Keeping You Ill?

EPISODE SUMMARY

Complex chronic illnesses have increased exponentially over the last decades. In this episode, Damon Ernst talks with Dr. Eric Gordon, MD, about some innovative therapies he uses to rebalance the body and heal chronic illnesses.

EPISODE NOTES
The rising tide of chronic illness in our country today is a major cause of concern. It’s a growing epidemic that is only getting worse.

Picture this, 60% of adults 18-65 years and 90% of adults above 65 years have at least one chronic illness.

Finding and treating the root causes by looking at the whole system will get us out of this deep chronic disease hole we find ourselves in.

But there is reason to feel encouraged…

There are many wonderful doctors that are doing some amazing work in empowering people to deeper, long-term healing. And on this podcast, we are determined to bring them to you.

Today, we have Dr. Eric Gordon, the president of the Gordon Medical Research Center and the founder and owner of Gordon Medical Associates, specializing in complex chronic illnesses.

We talk about a wide range of topics spanning from COVID, Lyme disease, chronic fatigue syndrome, and mast cell activation syndrome.

Dr. Gordon emphasizes that for most people with chronic illnesses, it is not the original bug that keeps them sick. It is their body’s compensation for the illness that is the problem.

So what is the solution?

Tune in to learn of the unique approach that Dr. Gordon uses to heal his chronic patients and lots of other important health tips!

Key Takeaways:

  • Dr. Gordon’s journey in medicine (01:48)
  • What is keeping you ill (04:17)
  • Public Health vs. Medicine (10:53)
  • Rebalancing the immune system (15:30)
  • All about Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (21:48)
  • Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (28:01)
  • What your body is telling you (32:32)
  • How stress makes you sick but also gets you well (35:27)

SHOW CONTRIBUTORS
Dr. Eric Gordon
Damon Ernst

Complex Chronic Illness, Eric Gordon MD

Four Ways Mold Can Affect Your Health

Nafysa Parpia, ND with input from Jamie Kunkle, ND

The Mycotoxin and Chronic Illness Summit is over. There was so much important information, it can be hard to know where to start. Today we are giving an overview of the kinds of issues that mold can cause.

Some people are affected by mold illness in multiple different ways that need to be addressed. In every case, removal from the exposure is critical. Following are the ways in which mold exposure can manifest clinically: 

  • Mold Allergy – Immune system reaction to mold exposure. Usually, removal of the mold exposure source will also remove symptoms.
  • Mold Toxicity – Many molds generate mycotoxins and biotoxins that impact several of the body’s systems. Simply removing the source of the mold exposure may not be sufficient to remove symptoms, as the toxicity has already started the process of inflammation and can continue in the body even after exposure has been discontinued.
  • Mold Colonization – Beyond the initial exposure comes a possibility of colonization, where mold becomes a resident within the living system, colonizing the surfaces of the body in the sinuses, lungs, GI system, and/or on the skin. Colonization does not reach into the deeper tissues, but now becomes an ongoing exposure to allergens, mycotoxins, and biotoxins and will complicate the impact. Even if the environmental source has been removed, exposure continues inside the body. 
  • Mold Infection – In very rare cases, when a patient’s immune system has been damaged by chemotherapy, AIDS, or other immunosuppressive factors, mold may infect tissues deeper in the body than what is seen with colonization, causing severe acute infectious disease.

Symptoms of mold exposures are many and can mimic and exacerbate those from other complex chronic illnesses such as Tick-Borne illness and other chronic infections, environmental toxicity, cognitive decline and neurological disorders.

Common Mold Exposure Symptoms

  • Confusion, disorientation
  • Difficulty in word finding
  • Impaired concentration
  • Difficulty assimilating new information
  • Reduced task completion
  • Hypersensitivity to bright light
  • Night blindness
  • Tearing, redness of the eyes
  • Blurred vision
  • Chronic aching muscles
  • Joint pain, morning joint stiffness, pain in weight bearing joints
  • Nausea
  • Loss of appetite
  • Weight gain
  • Abdominal pain
  • Chronic sinus congestion
  • Chronic cough that mimics asthma
  • Shortness of breath
  • Ice-pick like pain, or shooting electrical pain
  • Nosebleeds
  • Metallic taste or other unusual taste
  • Vertigo, dizziness
  • Ringing in the ears (tinnitus)
  • Rage or inappropriate anger, mood swings
  • Panic attacks or anxiety, depression
  • Tingling, “needles and pins” sensations
  • Increased sensitivity to touch
  • Difficulty with sleep: getting to sleep difficulties, difficulty staying asleep
  • Excessive thirst, or frequent urination
  • Impotence
  • Irregular vaginal bleeding
  • Low body temperature
  • Hypoglycemia
  • Low blood pressure
  • Chronic yeast infections
  • Early onset of menopause

Every generation has accumulated but often unseen toxic burdens that can affect their health and wellness. We have survived and adapted under substantial duress and adversity as a species. However, there are limitations on an individual’s health and functioning as these burdens continue to accumulate. Unfortunately, few of these toxicants are routinely tested for or identified until disease develops, and a syndrome diagnosis (based on signs/symptoms) is established. You may receive a diagnosis of an autoimmune condition, chronic fatigue syndrome or even Lyme disease (among others).

Mold is one of the most commonly missed and/or understated toxins of our lifetime. Many of us have had, or are currently experiencing an exposure to mold and its toxins (mycotoxins), and it may not be obvious. Identification is often challenging, and exposure can harm your system for years without a clear diagnosis.

Mold exposure can cause inflammation and toxicity in the body which further complicates symptoms from existing chronic illnesses. For example – many of our patients who already have chronic Lyme disease, neurological issues, cognitive decline, fibromyalgia and ME/CFS (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) also have exposure to mold and the toxins that it creates – mycotoxins. In our clinical experience, treating the patient for mold exposure, and mycotoxins if it is also an issue, helps allow for their other multiple diagnoses to resolve faster.

It is said, if one works with Lyme, they will often find toxicity. The presence of such can be a predisposing factor or a relative result of the chronic illness itself. Many have developed increased sensitivities and poor detoxification responses after developing Lyme illness. Some were already exposed to the toxins themselves, suppressing and dysregulating their immune system response and allowing for a less favorable terrain and resilience to illness. Toxicity can be responsible for relapsing symptoms and can easily affect multiple different organ systems.

Other toxicants exist and should be evaluated for health/wellness and success of treatment are not to be understated either. This includes heavy metals, glyphosate, industrial, agricultural and water contaminants to name a few. These are also easily hidden from view as many are consumed or inhaled often with little immediate response.

We find diagnosis and appropriate treatment for mycotoxins and other environmental toxicants needs to precede and be concurrent with treatment for other chronic illnesses. Depending on each individual patient’s manifestation of symptoms and concurrent diagnoses, treatment may include oral, intravenous and physical therapies. Treatments are highly personalized to each patient.

There are many ways to support detoxification, some gentle and some more aggressive. The level of intervention is typically dependent on the overall toxic burden and constitution of the individual. This process is often gradual but has the potential to reestablish a more positive momentum of healing in the living system.

Allergies, Biotoxin Issues, Complex Chronic Illness, Jamie Kunkle ND, Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Nafysa Parpia ND

Testing for Active Tickborne Disease

Play Video

Dr. Anderson: In the very beginning when I was treating tick-borne illness, in the 90’s, we had this idea of a full court press. We treated everything all at once, and we did five different antibiotics, and a few people survived that. Maybe 10%, 15% of people got better with that approach, the rest of the people it blew them out of the water.

So, I gradually developed a system of treatment where I appreciated that the immune system was like this great triage nurse. He or she was scanning the body and looking for what the most threatening pathogen was for the system. It’s never about one pathogen. It’s always an accumulation of pathogens, and they are all intermingling, and so many of them share similar symptoms.

And, in the moment, the immune system is telling us what it needs to do through the symptomatic presentation. Teaming up those symptoms with the pathogens helped me to appreciate, tuning into those symptoms helped me appreciate what needed to be treated first, because I was able to peel that off and weaken that dominant pathogen. Then the immune system was able to re-prioritize. This is the story that I told myself about it, the immune system would reprioritize and come up with another focus and that would have a different symptom presentation, often slightly different, but different enough to be able to tell the difference.

The Infectolab testing has given me results that reflect this way of thinking. It’s very important in how we deal with these infections, because in my experience, if we go at one pathogen at a time, and treat the most dominant pathogen and then the secondary pathogens, that’s the quickest way through treatment.

Complex Chronic Illness, Detox and Toxins, Lyme Disease + Coinfections, Tick Borne Illness, Wayne Anderson ND

The Cell Danger Response and Chronic Illness

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Dr. Jill Interviews Dr. Eric Gordon on The Cell Danger Response in Chronic Lyme disease. 

Highlights

  • The Cell Danger Response (CDR) is defined in terms of an ancient metabolic response to threat.
  • The CDR encompasses inflammation, innate immunity, oxidative stress, and the ER stress response.
  • The CDR is maintained by extracellular nucleotide (purinergic) signaling.
  • Abnormal persistence of the CDR lies at the heart of many chronic diseases
  • Antipurinergic therapy (APT) has proven effective in many chronic disorders in animal models.
Complex Chronic Illness, Eric Gordon MD, Metabolomics

Underlying Factors of Chronic Fatigue – Dr. Jill Interviews Dr. Nafysa Parpia

Dr. Jill interviews Dr. Nafysa Parpia on underlying factors causing chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia.

They discuss what goes wrong with the body, how the cell danger response can become chronically activated, and some tips on treatments and testing that is useful in these patients.

Key Takeaways

Pre-tox (before detoxification)

  • Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (MCAS) often needs to be treated first to allow patients to tolerate other treatments.
  • Peptide therapies can be used to calm down the immune system.
  • Correcting sleep issues is needed before detoxification can start. Herbs, supplements, peptides, and certain antihistamines can be used.
  • Constipation needs to be addressed.
  • Any issues with the kidneys need to be looked at.
  • Herbs may be used as supportive therapies.

Detoxification

  • Detoxification needs to happen prior to and concurrent with treating infections. If the toxic load is high detox will cause negative reactions or “herxes.”
  • Each person has their own individual picture of factors causing symptoms, and will respond differently to treatment than other patients. Genetics are a factor there.
  • Treatment needs to be individually designed in response to that picture.
  • Arsenic and aluminum are being seen more, possibly due to the wildfires.
  • Medication is often required for the patient population seen at GMA.
  • Things patients can do themselves: coffee enemas for the liver, saunas or other means of sweating, dry brushing, castor oil packs, oil pulling, avoid buying foods and personal care products, home care products, etc. that contain chemical and toxins, eat organic.

Causes Behind Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia

  • Pathogens are often involved: often parasites, viruses, tick-borne illnesses, mold, dental occult infections, sinus infections (fungal and MARCons).
  • With infections, you not only have to treat the infection but also restore the system.
  • Heavy metals
  • Infections and toxins hijack the system.
  • Hormone imbalances, especially sex hormones and thyroid.
  • GI imbalances and infections.

The Cell Danger Response

  • A monitoring system in the cell, modulated by the mitochondria, that looks for danger from pathogens, toxins, nutrient issues, emotional or physical stress, or other problems that can impact cell health.
  • In response to signals interpreted as dangerous, the cell sends out signals intended to create changes that protect the cell.
  • This response is happening all the time as the immune system watches for invaders. The problem is when the danger signal does not turn off, and the cell gets stuck in a defensive state.
  • The system gets stuck in this repeating loop of incomplete recovery and re-injury, and they’re unable to fully heal.
  • The CDR has three phases.
  • When CDR begins in enough cells you start to get symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, body aches and pains.
  • Part One involves the innate immune system. The neutrophils, the macrophages, natural killer cells, monocytes, the mast cells.
  • In Part One the mitochondria produces less ATP, exports the ATP outside the cell walls, and begins to depend on glucose for energy in anerobic respiration.
  • If someone gets stuck in Part One, you can see HPA axis issues, allergies, asthma, chronic infections.
  • Part Two is when we start to rebuild tissue damage through cell proliferation.
  • Mitochondria begin producing more ATP.
  • Someone stuck in Part Two may show proliferative disorders, cancers, hypertension, different heart diseases.
  • In Part Three the body is restoring intercellular communication.
  • Hormones and neurotransmitters are important in Part Three.
  • When stuck, we’re going to see illnesses like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and fibromyalgia, autism spectrum disorder, PTSD, anxiety, depression.

Restoration

  • Chronic illness is traumatic
  • Regenerative treatments help restore balance

Transcript

This has been edited slightly for clarity and ease of reading.

Jill Carnahan (JC): Hello everybody! You’re here this afternoon with us and Dr. Nafysa, and I am so excited today about today’s topic.  I know a lot of you struggle with chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia. We’re going to do a really deep dive into some of the mechanisms behind that. You’re going to find some really fascinating information from Dr. Nafysa today that her practice, Gordon Medical Associates deals with and was actually instrumental in some of the research behind.  

So, stay tuned for that! Before we start, and before I give her a formal introduction, I want to just tell you a little bit of housekeeping. If you don’t already know, you can find all of these videos on my YouTube channel. Just go to YouTube and find my name, Jill Carnahan, and you can find all the 50 plus interviews there for free. I’d love if you subscribe or leave feedback there, or share those videos if you find them helpful. You can also re-watch them here on Facebook and on the podcast, so just all things medical here. If you do want information about blogs, information about Lyme disease, co-infections, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, other topics, you can find that on my website at jillcarnahan.com, and if we do mention any products or services, you can find those at drjillhealth.com.

So, Dr. Nafysa, I would love to formally introduce you, and I’m so glad you’re here today.  Dr Parpia has spent the last decade treating patients with complex chronic illness from all over the United States and the world. Her specialization is patients with tick-borne illness, environmentally acquired illness, mold and mycotoxin illness, autoimmunity, fibromyalgia, and chronic fatigue. Sounds real familiar! External factors to the body, such as environmental toxic burden, pathogens, diet, and lifestyle affect the balance of internal factors (and we’ll talk a little bit about that today); over or under expression of immunity, infection susceptibility, epigenetic expression, and cellular and biochemical function, mood and the microbiome.

All of these things are some of what we’re going to talk about that affect our mitochondria, which expresses fatigue, and some of these other things. Each of these aspects is different for every patient we see. Investigating to discover and remove the underlying cause while providing symptom relief, she uses cutting edge lab testing and deep intuition applied to the full range of scientific data to unravel the mystery of each patient. She then creates a carefully crafted treatment plan, highly personalized and healing.

She uses a synergistic blend of regenerative medicine, oral and IV micronutrient therapies, peptides, botanical medicine, pharmaceuticals, injection therapies, functional nutrition, and lifestyle counseling. She sees patients at Gordon Medical in the San Francisco bay area, and previously worked in Dr Klinghart’s clinic. She’s also, as I am, on the ISEAI (International Society of Environmentally Acquired Illness) board, and is scientific medical advisor for the Neurohacker Collective.

Absolute honor and delight to have you, Dr Nafysa! Thank you so much for joining me today.

Nafysa Parpia (NP): Thank you, Dr. Jill for having me. Such an honor to be here.

JC: Yes. So, we met through the ISEAI board, but I know this about the work you’ve done and it’s just, like I said, it’s an honor. It’s so parallel when I read your bio, you know, we’re all doing our things in our corners of the world trying to solve the mysteries of these chronic illnesses.

Before we dive into chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, I’d love to hear just a little bit, and I know our listeners would, about your story and, kind of how you got into medicine and healing. Tell us just a little bit about your journey into this field.

NP: I always knew that I wanted to help people in their healing. I began as a yoga instructor, and the more I taught yoga, the more I realized I wanted to go deeper with people, particularly in illness and in health, and restoring illness into health. And so, I went to Bastyr and I studied naturopathic medicine there.

It wasn’t until I was in the offices of Dr. Dietrich Klinghart, when I graduated, and I saw people who were very, very, very sick, that was when my heart just went out to these patients. I could see that they were suffering, you know, but they weren’t treated at other clinics, before going to his clinic, with very much respect. They were told this is all in their head, or they’re just aging, and there was minimal treatment or minimal diagnosis offered to them. I could just feel the depth of their illness, and it was painful to see the judgments that were put upon them. So, I wanted to help, in helping create treatment and protocols and really dive deep with these people and help them out of the suffering that they were having a hard time coming out of. Yeah, gosh, I love that, because most of us who go into medicine in some form, it’s this healer within us that really does want to just help and understand.

And I think especially those of us who end up with environmental toxicity, mold, pathogens, chronic illness. No one in their right mind would choose this unless they were a healer, right?

JC: Exactly!  It is definitely the hardest, most complex form of medicine. I’m sure you agree.  I love it! I know you do too. Like, I love the complexity.  I always say the more complex the better. But it’s really, really difficult sometimes and these are not, these are the cases that the most conventional doctors don’t want to see, sadly, so it’s good that you and I, you know, are welcoming them to our practice. So, you’ve had such a great experience with some amazing medical partners. You were with Dr. Klinghart originally. Was that right after you graduated?

NP: Yeah, right after I graduated.

JC: Excellent, fantastic! You probably got a little bit of good information on Lyme and co-infections and all of that there, and he’s so good at some of the environmental toxicity and the stuff that’s on the cutting edge. I always feel like the Europeans are way ahead of us, and because he’s originally from Europe I love his perspective. He’s not jaded like many, right?

NP: Exactly! So, it was really wonderful. That’s where I first learned, right after school, really how to work with this population, about the tick-borne illnesses and mold and detoxification therapies. And from there I really made it my own.

JC: Yeah! Was there anything in particular with that experience that you learned as far as how to approach a chronic infection or…  Well, first of all we’re talking about chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia. So, say you had a patient with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, from your early days was there anything that sticks in your mind about lessons that you learned about how to approach them?

NP: Absolutely! So, the first was to detoxify them first. To find out what the toxic burden is. So, testing through different labs, looking at different heavy metals or different chemicals, glyphosate, different pesticides and understanding what that burden is.

Because if we detoxify them first, then then we can get the immune system to be more modified. We can we can get it to be more able to handle the killing of infections.

JC: What a great pearl! And for those of you listening, you’ve probably been to doctors who are like, “Oh, let’s start these antibiotics.” But what you’re saying, which I’ve seen that as well, it’s like the body, if its toxic load, if its bucket is full, and that’s usually the ones that are coming to see us because some of that pain and fibromyalgia types of stuff. Again, we’ll go deep into why that happens and some of the reasons behind it is from the toxic burden in the tissues, right? So, if you take a person like that, they have infections that need treating but you throw these even herbal antibiotics, but for sure medications, it’s too much for their system to handle, isn’t it?

NP: Right. They’ll actually backfire. A lot of times they’ve got this hyperactivity in the immune system. On one hand they’ve got a hyperactive immune system and on another hand of the immune system it’s it it’s too weak to even mount an appropriate immune response. So many times, if we try to treat them with the antibiotics, herbal or pharmaceutical, first they’ll be sensitive to those treatments. So, we have to decrease the toxic load and get the mast cells in order first, and then like…

JC: I love that order, because it’s so important, I’ve noticed that with my own practice as well, where again, if there’s infection and toxins and mast cell activation, which is common, and chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, you really can’t go to treatment until you start with getting that mast cell calmed down and the detoxification at least under control.

What are some of the things when they first come in like that, would you, what kind of testing panels would you do for the initial assessment?

NP: So, I like to do the Great Plains panel where I’m going to look at their glyphosate, mycotoxins. Most of my patients do have a high mycotoxin load and also on their tox panel while I’m looking at a lot of chemicals. I’ll also do the Doctor’s Data heavy metal provocation, but I’m also going to look at metals unprovoked first. Just from Labcorp, just urinate in a cup or to have their blood taken at Labcorp looking for the ones that Labcorp will look at, like mercury, lead, aluminum, arsenic. By the way, I’m seeing a lot of arsenic.

JC: Yes!

NP: In people’s blood, and I think that’s from the fires. It’s not something I saw in previous years. It’s all of a sudden, this year, whoa lots of arsenic!

JC: I bet you’re right. I suspect with the fires there’s definitely a lot of metals that were released and I’m seeing more and more aluminum in all of my patients.

NP: Yes! Which I didn’t see.

JC: And I’m like where else is it coming from because we know like vaccinations over time can be a source, aluminum cookware, um, what are some other sources of aluminum that you think of when you see aluminum? Is there anything else that you think of?

NP: You know, I recently, I had a drummer. I have a drummer in my practice and he drummed bare foot and there was aluminum on the pedal.

JC: Wow!

NP: And aluminum was through the roof. I just measured it so…

JC: Wow, that’s so that’s so fascinating! Isn’t it funny when you find one of those, where you’re like, oh I think this is from this?  And arsenic too. I think it’s more in the rain water, but probably from the fires, and then the rain and the soils and yeah, so, wow! Very good! One thing we kind of glossed over, we talked about how you got into this medicine, but is there anything else that interests you about this population? I mean, we talked a little bit about the helping, the healer within you, but because again this is a population that is very complex. But you must love to solve problems. Is that one of your…

NP: I love to solve problems. I love to solve human problems.

JC: Yes! Yeah, exactly, right?

NP: I’m not an engineer, you know, but the human problems. But it is very much a mystery. It’s very much a puzzle and each person is their own mystery. So, while I run the same labs for everybody, I’m going to find different pieces, and one person will react very differently than another to treatment, or from the same exposure.  A lot of that has to do with the genes.

So, speaking of labs, I like to use the IntellxxDNA.  I found that they really looked at how the snips will interact with one another, as opposed to just here’s a snip, or there’s a snip. They’ll look at them together, and they really culled the research to look at what diseases are related to which genes that are acting in symphony with one another.  So, it’s an expensive test…

JC: This is great! I just started doing this. I have a couple patients pending. I did it on myself and it’s pending, and I’ve got Sharon coming on, so stay tuned for the show because I’m so excited because we’ll have her talk about that. She’s the expert, the medical director of IntellxxDNA. Yeah, I love that you’re using that, because I’ve been, so many genetic tests out there aren’t there yet.

NP: Yeah, I found that this one is the most informative.

JC: I agree! So, say you have someone, and again, we’re going to get to fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue in a moment, and the Cell Danger Response, which I do want you to talk about. But before we go there, say you do have someone with arsenic or metals, or say they have a little bit of mast cell activation, they have chronic pain and chronic infection and toxic burden and all these things. If you do find metals are you going to do that early on, detoxification, are you going to do maybe some treatment? Where would you order that in in your treatment plan?

NP: I think it depends on the person, but most of my patients I have to treat mast cell activation syndrome first. Usually, they come to me with that. They don’t even know they have it, so I just want to calm down the immune system. That’s the hyperactivity that I want to calm down.

I’ll use peptide therapies very often with that. I like to use thymus and Beta-4 to help calm down the immune system. I’ll use BPC-157 as well to help with decreasing inflammation. I’ll give them sleep peptides. Often, they need to sleep before they’re even ready to detox. Sometimes they’re constipated, so I need to deal with the constipation before they’re ready to detox, or else they’ll just be a backlog of toxicants that aren’t exiting the system. Sometimes they have issues with their kidneys so we have to work with that.  

Often with these patients I’m calming down their immune system while I’m working with other systems that aren’t quite ready for detox.  I’m doing like a pre-tox, I’m giving herbs to support, right, and then I’ll re-test some labs. See where they’re at. And also see where they’re at with the way they’re feeling. And then we’ll begin chelation therapy.

 JC: That’s tremendous and I always admire some of my best learnings are from my naturopathic friends because I feel like you guys have such a great training in some of those detox, what’s the name of it from naturopathic medicine of the detox pathways?

NP: The munterries?

JC: Yeah, I like that term because I’ve learned that over time, but traditional allopathic medicine, we’re not taught about this. Which is why most doctors, unless they go get extra education, they don’t even know. I feel like you guys have a lot to teach us in this way. Tremendous! What other things would you do? Some of the homeopathic remedies or drainage remedies or things? What about non-herbal, non-homeopathics, maybe epsom salt baths or alkaline water? Do you have any sort of just environmental or lifestyle things that are good for detox that you like for most of your patients?

NP: Yeah, most of them actually do well with coffee enemas, as strange as that sounds. Actually, it helps their liver to continue detoxifying. Saunas I think are really important, or at least getting the sweat going, because the skin is the largest organ of detoxification. And of course, making sure that they’re not using products that have chemicals and toxins in them, and they’re eating organic as much as they possibly can.

JC: Fantastic! Yeah, and do you do castor oil packs or a dry brush or some of those?

 NP: Yes! Yes, castor oil packs, dry brushing, oil pulling. Yeah, we use a combination of very classic naturopathic techniques along with this patient population, I have to use a lot of medications.

JC: Yes. Definitely, especially with MCAS you really sometimes need to layer four, five, six, things.

NP: Yeah! It turns out, when I went to naturopathic school these were the treatments that were taught to us, and they’re wonderful for the population that’s not extremely sick, and for the people that are extremely sick, they’re excellent, supportive, and I consider them foundational, but then I have to go into stronger…

JC: Right, right. I love it though, because we’re pulling from both worlds, because I like to learn from the homeopathic, naturopathic world, but we still need medications of course, on both ends, so great. So, we talked about your interest, and so let’s go, let’s dive into what’s behind these illnesses, because there’s so many. I’ll just let you talk a little bit about what’s behind, and then after that we can go into the Cell Danger (Response).  I definitely want to talk about that. So, behind these illnesses, what was so great is the bio that I read for you, you literally listed what’s behind these illnesses in your bio.  I love that, but talk a little bit about what those are, so someone who has fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, who is listening, what might be some of the causes behind that?

NP: In classic fibromyalgia they say there’s no cause, right, and then you get them working and they’re supposed to be better. Most of my patients are not like that. If I give them Lyrica it’s not going to really help. Maybe a little bit for a couple weeks, and then nothing.  So usually, I’m looking for pathogens, often parasites, viruses, tick-borne illnesses, mold, dental occult infections.

JC: That’s very common, isn’t it?

NP: Right, sinus infections, which I think is overlooked a lot. I bet you’re thinking the same thing about the sinus. It’s so close to the brain, and I’m finding a lot of funguses or MARCons in people’s sinuses, and once I treat that their brain fog begins to resolve, because I think of the inflammatory cytokines, the bugs that are in the sinuses…

JC: I find this to be one of the biggest missing pieces of people who’ve been to mold treatment other places.  I’m like, did anyone treat your sinuses? Like, no! This is a really big deal.

NP: I totally agree!  I’ll treat the sinuses the same way I treat the gut, actually, by killing the infections, restoring the whole thing.

JC: What do you like, let’s pause there real quick, because what do you like to use? I mean I have some herbal favorites and some prescription favorites, but what are some of your preferred ways to treat the sinuses? Do you do irrigation, do you do sprays, do you compound, do you do herbs?

NP: I do compounding very often. I’m going to start with Argentyn silver. I found that if people do this, if they nebulize it, not just spray it, but they atomize it so it really goes up high, then I’ve seen that really reduce brain fog. If they do this, and this is a tall order, like four or five times a day for two weeks. It’s changed people’s lives, people who are not chronically ill but that have brain fog, that has changed their life just doing that.

JC: And just plain silver or with EDTA, or would you use both?

NP: I start with silver, and then I also have them do at night a nasal probiotic flush, and then also I’ll have them put coconut oil in their nostrils because it’s hard to kill infections in the sinuses when they’re dry. They’ll do that for two weeks, and then I’ll move into using Chelating PX, which is EDT to bust up the biofilm.  And then if they have a fungus, I might use amphotericin or BEG spray if there’s MARCons, so whatever antibiotic they need.  I’ll use that, we’ll be atomizing that.

JC:  that was tremendous and I love a couple things you mentioned. First of all, that you start with silver without EDTA, because I think sometimes that biofilm busting is way too much. They get headaches or they get really sick because all of a sudden, it’s a dumping of the dead material that’s being… I think of the biofilms, if you’re listening, as pond scum. It’s like this kind of gross covering that keeps everything hidden from the antibiotics or the silver. So you need to bust it up to clear it out, but if you bust it up too much too quickly the system gets overwhelmed and the mast cells get angry too, right?

NP: They sure do! I think of it as a gentle way in before I, in fact that’s the way how I’ll treat most people. We’ll start and I’ll start gently and ramp them up.

JC:  I’ll just remember this, and the other thing mentioned, the dryness, because most of us aren’t flying a lot nowadays, but it’s just flying in an airplane, it’s so dry! That’s why people tend to get more sick, or used to. Again, now things are just very different. Still toxic, because they spray all these chemicals, but the dryness of the air. And here I am in Colorado, which is really dry, that really makes a difference, the moisture.  I love that you recommended… now are you having people just put it just in their nostrils a little bit?

NP: Yeah, just have them take a Q-tip and just put it in.

JC: Instead of Vaseline, which is petroleum-based, right?

NP: Right, exactly.

JC: Oh, that’s a great pearl. So, we talked about nasal and then I interrupted. What else would be the underlying factors in the chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia?

NP: So definitely heavy metals, which we already talked about. I think of this, it’s a whole soup, so it’s not salad like where’s the tomato, here’s a piece of celery, it’s the whole thing together in one soup.

So, metals, usually there’s a high viral load, I’ll measure people’s nagalase. I love the Infectolabs test, by the way, because now we can use T cells to look at if the infection is active right now or no, as opposed to looking antibodies where we have to kind of guess, right?  I’ll use that test to see if there’s a high viral load. If there’s mold, I like to look at the mold IgG, at allergens as well as mycotoxins. So, I’ll look at that on Labcorp.

Basically, I’m hunting for different infections and different toxins because those are the two things that I think hijacked the system. Of course, I’m looking at their hormones, their sex hormone panel and their thyroid, because those are areas that are going to be affected, as well, causing fatigue.

JC: Excellent! So, pathogens, toxins, infections, and hormones and oh this is great!

NP:  And the gut, of course the gut.

JC: Yes, and you always do like stool and organic acids, or how do you like to assess the gut?

NP: Yeah, I like the GI Map Test. I find it to be the most sensitive so I look there, and most of my patients also have SIBO, which I generally like to treat first.

I like the Trio Smart Test because you’re looking at hydrogen sulfide SIBO, and no other test has done that before. So that that will give us a chance to find SIBO in ways we haven’t been able to before.

JC: Yes, now the key is, then what do we do with hydrogen SIBO? I’ve read a little bit about some of the pearls for treatment. But if you do find hydrogen sulfide is there any particular things you do differently with treatments or herbs?

NP: You know for sure I’m having them decrease sulfur in their diet. But I’m using the same treatment as I would for regular SIBO, which is the Xifaxan, Flagyl, the bismuth to bust up the biofilm, goldenseal to prevent yeast.

JC: Yes, oh fantastic! Sounds so similar and so important, because again that gut…

I love that you mentioned two things that I think are so critical, that you really can’t get past, and that’s sleep and constipation. So, if you have someone coming in that has insomnia or constipation, no matter what kind of protocol you put them on, if they’re not sleeping and they’re not pooping, you’re not gonna get very far, right?

NP: No, no, no exactly!

JC: What do you feel for sleep, because a lot of these patients have sleep issues, and it’s related to everything else we talked about. Any tips or tricks that you have for helping patients sleep?

NP:  I have an ayurvedic sleep tea which I really like. There’s cardamom in it. Cardamom helps people stay asleep. There’s ashwagandha and shatavari in it, that can help people. Now there’s some people who that doesn’t help, or you know the regular things, like valerian or GABA or L-theanine, that’s not helping them. I’ll go to peptides for them. I like Epitalon for sleep, or delta-inducing sleep peptide. Those really, really help people and it makes me not have to use, and I’d like to not use benzos for their sleep, right? I found that peptides can be a way around having to use benzos for those people who just can’t sleep no matter what herb I give them or no matter what sleep hygiene techniques we give.

JC: This could be tricky in the tick-borne infections. They complain to that too, and the activation of the immune system, so I find that sleep issues for some people is really hard to hack. But like you said, between peptides and herbs and then there was some, oh I was thinking antihistamines can be, like hydroxyzine and those can be really helpful.

NP:  Yeah, because often actually I give ketotifen for mast cell activation syndrome and it really helps them to fall asleep. There’s the odd person, I found in my practice, that makes them groggy in the morning. Not too often, but sometimes I can’t give them ketotifen.

JC: Great tips! So, let’s talk about this Cell Danger Response (CDR), because I know Gordon Medical center was where, you had told me right before we got on live, that you guys had actually done some of the research with Dr. Naviaux (Bob Naviaux, PhD). So, tell us first what is it, and then you can just dive in, I can ask some questions, but I definitely want to talk about this.

If you haven’t heard about the Cell Danger Response, this is groundbreaking!

NP: So, at Gordon Medical we provided the patients that Dr. Naviaux did research on. This was right before I joined Gordon Medical. Gordon Medical and Dr. Naviaux were involved in in the research together then, and wrote the paper on this, and it is groundbreaking.

Metabolic features of chronic fatigue syndrome: Robert K. Naviaux, Jane C. Naviaux, Kefeng Li, A. Taylor Bright, William A. Alaynick, Lin Wang, Asha Baxter, Neil Nathan, Wayne Anderson, Eric Gordon, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Sep 2016, 113 (37) E5472-E5480; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1607571113

So, the Cell Danger Response, it’s modulated by mitochondria, which is the energy producing part of the cell, and it’s also sensing when the cell’s not getting the nutrients it should be getting. So that means that the cell’s in danger. It’s signaling the immune system to take action. That there is danger. It can happen when there’s a virus in there, or a toxin that ties up nutrients, and the mitochondria will then send a signal to other cells. But that signal is that it starts to send ATP outside of the cell. So actually, around the cell membrane instead of inside the cell.

 The important thing to remember is that it’s not an on and off signal. There’s a little bit of the signaling every day to help your body pay attention to when there is an invader; a pathogen or a toxin or stress, whether that’s emotional or physical stress. So, it doesn’t have to be a disease. It’s really actually happening constantly as a normal defense mechanism, but when the signal persists, that’s when illness occurs. There’s a healing response that’s stuck in this loop and it just can’t stop. Mast cells are constantly activated, the immune system is constantly activated, so it’s like trying to understand, where do I cut that loop, how do I stop the cell danger response from happening?

Speaking of chronic fatigue, Dr. Naviaux, and Gordon Medical, the research occurred on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, itself.

JC: Yeah, so yeah, associated. I mean he’s associated Cell Danger Response with Lyme disease, with autism, with chronic fatigue, yeah, so it’s been really wide. Like it’s one of the things that I know you and I, we can see it unifies a lot of these complex chronic illnesses that we see. Almost all of them, actually.

NP: Exactly! Yeah, they’re stuck in this repeating loop of incomplete recovery and re-injury, and they’re unable to fully heal.

JC: Talk a little about that, because there’s the Cell Danger Response, with phase one, two, and three, and each of those, if it gets stuck, there’s different sets of illnesses and things. You want to talk a little bit about some of those, and the differences between them?

NP: Sure! Part One involves the innate immune system. The neutrophils, the macrophages, natural killer cells, monocytes, the mast cells. These cells come out, the mast cells come to prime the immune system and then the other cells will come out to begin the killing, and may actually do the killing. But the infected cells, at this point they stop making normal amounts of ATP, and this is when they start to export the ATP to the cell membrane outside the cell. That’s the danger signal, usually signaling the rest of the body cells, “Hey there’s a danger here, there’s a toxin, there’s a bug that’s activating the innate immune system.”

So, we see, if it happens in a lot of cells, that’s when we start to see the sick behavior: fatigue, brain fog, body aches and pains. If it only happens a little bit, we’re just going to get a stuffy nose. But at this point they’re depending on glucose for energy instead of ATP, because the mitochondria are now browning out. So, it’s anaerobic respiration. They’re producing little energy, so we’ll see illnesses here. If we’re stuck here, we’ll see HPA axis issues, allergies, asthma, chronic infections which are often underneath chronic fatigue syndrome and the fibromyalgia that I see. So, it can be stuck here and in part two and part three which I’ll talk about in a minute.

So, it can be stuck in different parts and all different systems of the body.

Part Two is when we start to rebuild tissue damage, and that’s cell proliferation. The mitochondria start to go back to producing more ATP, but it’s still anaerobic. We’re not burning fat still.  We’re still burning energy from glucose, but there’s less of an inflammatory signal, so here it’s more proliferative disorders, cancers, hypertension, different heart diseases.

Then there’s Part Three, where we’re restoring intercellular communication. The cells learn how to function as a part of the whole, so a lot of hormones are important here. Neurotransmitters are important here. So here we’re going to see illnesses like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and fibromyalgia, autism spectrum disorder, PTSD, anxiety, depression.

JC: I love it, because you really cover all of medicine like this. This is such an underlying cellular, like, we’re talking about at the cell level. One of the things that goes wrong, which is why when Dr. Naviaux really has presented his data, all of us were just like, wow! I remember two years ago, at ISEAI, when he presented, and you involved a little bit in the research. So maybe you knew some of the back story, but for me, and most of us, who hadn’t heard a lot of the research, it was literally jaw-dropping! Oh my goodness, this is amazing! Because it just puts everything together.

I’m gonna try to, I may not be exactly scientifically accurate. But for those of you who are listening, and you’re not super scientific, I’m going to try to explain in really simple terms what’s happening. You have a cell, and when the cell spills its contents, it’s broken, right? It like, spills out, then the contents get outside. That’s what’s triggering this, is outside the cell, it’s like, we call it like damage associated receptors. So basically, the damage to the cell, the contents of the cell got exploded or damaged or leaky, and then the outside is getting the signal that, oh, there’s cell contents outside the cell. This is not good.

I think of it real simplistically as you’ve spilled contents of a cell that was damaged, and outside the cell there was a signal. Because your body knows, it’s very smart, it’s like this should not be outside the cell. It should be inside the cell, and that’s the ATP.  The ATP as a cellular currency should be in the cell making energy for the cell. If it gets outside the cell this is the Cell Danger Response, and again, super simplified, probably not completely scientifically accurate. But for those of you listening to understand, it’s just the spilled contents. The cell’s broken, it’s damaged, and because this damage is telling the body, something is dreadfully wrong. You’ve got to mop up this mess you’ve spilled on the floor.

That’s kind of how I think of it in a simplistic way.

NP: Exactly that.

JC: So then, what do we do? Again, this is a cellular mechanism. There have been drugs studied to stop this that are highly effective. Unfortunately, they’re not available, right?

NP: Suramin.

So interesting. I think in medicine, we’re so good with A goes to B. Heart attack, broken bone, bullet wound, medicine knows what to do. But Dr. Naviaux calls what we’re talking about the black box of healing, the complex chronic illness. So, this is where it becomes highly personalized. When we look at the genes, we look for the toxins, we look, we’re looking for what is causing the most irritation in the system. For my patients, all of these things we just talked about, but usually it’s the immune system that’s the loudest first, and the mast cells. So back to that! Treating that.

JC: Back to where we started, which is starting with calming the mast cells, supporting immune system, clearing infections, treating heavy metals, toxicity, and then going down the road.

One question I just thought of as we’re talking, on fibromyalgia. I have heard some of the theories around having lactic acidosis, which is basically in the tissues you have a more acidic environment which can cause pain. Again, that can come from everything, it’s not a new theory, it’s nothing that’s different from what we’re already talking about. But have you found any sort of alkalinization therapies helpful? Like say, mineral water, Alka Seltzer Gold, some of those things, or even alkaline diets? Have you done anything along those lines?

NP: Absolutely! Alkaline diets I think really help, or intermittent fasting. For sure the detoxification is going to help.

JC: Yes, excellent! So, what else would we look at? Let’s go back to talk about chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia just slightly separately, because they are very similar in mechanism but we might treat them slightly differently.

Let’s start with fatigue, because fatigue is, most people who are sick they have some sort of fatigue.  They may not qualify for chronic fatigue (syndrome). Most of them do but even if they don’t, they’d usually have, and it usually is associated with brain fog. It’s so funny, because those of us in medicine, brain fog isn’t really defined, right, but every patient that we ever talk to, if we say brain fog, they know what we mean. So, we use that term a lot. How would you define brain fog, or what would people be complaining of when they come to you with that?

NP: Most of my patients have brain fog, actually. In tick-borne illness, I find the brain fog is actually more tied to pain than in people who have mostly just viral issues. But in both populations, the brain fog will manifest pretty similarly, or be experienced similarly. So, I just went into a room, and I forgot what I went there for. I went to the grocery store and I picked up peas, but I meant to get potatoes, or things like that. Or I just can’t think straight, a lot of them say I think I’m losing my mind. I actually find it’s more in the tick-borne illness patients that it’s that extreme, who say I think I’m going crazy.

But for women a lot of times, if they’re not sick, we can just fix the hormones. That’ll help them, right? But for these patients, if we fix the hormones, they’re still going to feel like they have brain fog. So that’s another sign that there’s something else going on.

JC: I love that, because I remember 15-20 years ago, when I started in functional medicine, I have a menopause patient or a patient with hypothyroid, and it’d be very simple, straightforward. We replace the hormones or balance their hormones or give them thyroid, and they feel better. And I don’t know when I’ve seen one of those kinds of patients lately, because there’s so many layers. If only it were that simple! Certainly, there are people who that’s all it needs is just a little tweaking, but I find that to be kind of a superficial level.

Not superficial, it’s very, very important, but it’s superficial enough that what we’re talking about here is usually way deeper causes. So, just doing that alone, unfortunately nowadays, at least for my practice, doesn’t usually 100% turn them around, right?

NP:  No, definitely not! I wish it would, and they wish it too. They say okay, now look, the labs say that my progesterone and my estrogen are back into balance, but I still feel the same. Still so terrible! Then I say, but you know that’s just a foundation for you? Now at least we have this foundation set, now we have to really get into the nitty-gritty of working on the immune system and working on bringing out the insults.

But what I also find is that once I can take, we can take the knife out, like the bugs, the toxins out, but  the symptoms still persist.

JC: It’s almost like a memory, right?  Even though you’ve cleaned up the terrain, the body still remembers and can kind of stay… What do you do with that? I’ve seen, we may even go into this, but I feel like emotional trauma, emotional health, some of these limbic system things are so critical. Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on that, and what would you do?

NP: I think that that’s really a big piece. That’s when a lot of times I might start to use regenerative medicine, actually exosomes or biological allografts. Those I found can really help. NAD IV can help a lot at that point as well. That’s looking at the biochemical piece, but you just talked about, and what I would consider such an important piece, which is the healing piece. These people have normally experienced a lot of trauma in their lives. That’s what I find.

Just like these illnesses have hijacked the different systems of their body, they’ve also had had people in their lives do what I would call hijacking their lives in some way. So much trauma, and so that that piece is really, really important.

I like to give them craniosacral therapy, and we have some amazing healers that we work with as well. So, I send them to the healers for that kind of work. Acupuncture…

JC:  I love that you’re mentioning that, because I feel the same and those aren’t my areas of expertise but I know people who do it. So whether it’s somatic based trauma therapies, whether there’s programs like DNRS program, Safe and Sound by Porges, or there’s a bunch of programs out there that are really helpful. Love craniosacral, love acupuncture, and naturopathy, we have some of the traditional emotional remedies, those types of things, with homeopathic remedies and things. Again, not my area of expertise, but those, all together can be really profound at that layer.

Because what happens with these illnesses, even if you’re healthy, you have a good family support system, the body subconsciously sees this mold or Lyme as a trauma, and so even if you’re super healthy and you weren’t abused as a child, it’s still a trauma. And then the medical system, I think, sadly, most of the time further traumatizes the patients.

NP: I agree, yeah, they really do. Because they haven’t been accepted.

JC: Yeah, they’ve been told they’re crazy, or go take this med for your mind, or it’s not… I mean, you might manifest as insomnia or bipolar or depression, anxiety, but these are not primarily psychological issues.

NP: Exactly, yeah, they’re secondary to the issue at hand, which is usually the infection or toxin.

JC: Yeah, I wonder nowadays if all mental illness isn’t really gut, microbiome, Cell Danger Response. I don’t know if there’s any pure psychological disorders anymore, because I can always find a root cause that’s actually physiological, right?

NP: Exactly, and then once it takes some time to turn these people around, but once they’re turned around, I see big shifts in their psychology…

JC: and moods and relationships, and it’s amazing, right? The whole dynamic to shift, so yeah, it’s amazing.

Well, let’s shift in our last couple minutes, because we’ve really covered a lot of ground. We talked a little about the limbic and some of these things, but what about just whether it’s social support, isolation, especially with COVID and the pandemic and all that we’ve experienced? What are some kind of mental health tips or social tips or things that you might encourage your patients to do, just to have a support system? Or anything in that realm that you would think about, or encourage them, or nature walks or things like that?

 NP: Yeah, there’s a lot of support groups out there. Sometimes I’ve heard patients tell me that, oh, that just really drags me into my diagnosis more. That’s just not what I want. And other people say, oh, I needed to meet more people just like myself. So, I think that everybody who’s interested should try to experience it and see if it’s for them or not. Some people it’s great, some people they don’t want that. Those I think are people who are more solitary people, and for them, for everybody, nature walks. I find grounding really helps. Just putting their feet in the sand, feeling the sunshine on them.

JC:  I love that! You’re in the bay area, did you say? You don’t always get sunshine.

NP: It can be cool down here.

JC: I love the earthing and grounding, and then, do you guys recommend pulsed electromagnetic fields (PEMF) in your clinic at all?

 NP: Yes and no. So, I’ve seen it blow up a lot of our patients. You know, they’re just not quite ready for it, so more towards the end of treatment I’ve seen it work really well.

JC: And with that NAD IV and exosomes and stuff, so the powerhouse is that. For me personally, at this level now, I love it, but I think it would have blown me out of the water five years ago. That makes sense.

Let’s see, I was thinking I wanted to go back to one other thing you mentioned, coffee enemas. I went to Switzerland for a detox, like the last two years, before, when we could travel. One thing that was there, that they had these coffee enema kits that were just so amazingly easy to use. It’s a Swiss mountain clinic. Used to be Paracelsus. So, we’ve actually imported those and I have them at the clinic. I want to be sure and let the listeners know if you want an easy way. Because I agree with you, the coffee enemas can be so profound, and you can get online kits and setups. Do you have those at your clinic that you sell or recommend at all?

NP: We don’t but, Ben Greenfield wrote a really good article, so I just send people that website. I’d love to hear about the winner.

JC: Perfect! I’ll include a link for the Coffee Enema Kit down here. I just want to mention it because it’s such a unique thing that we have at our clinic and we can ship to you anywhere in the U.S. We actually import them from Europe because they’re not made in the U.S. It’s a really simple setup with a bottle that’s bpa-free, and tubing and literally an instant, really, really clean low roasted green coffee with charcoal in it. It’s a German formula. It’s the cleanest thing I’ve ever found, and you just put it in the bottle, warm tap water, shake it up, and you’re done. So super easy to use. I’ll include a link in case anyone’s interested because it’s just one of those things where I found being in Switzerland, I’m like, we need this in the U.S. When I tried to figure out who had them, no one had them.

So last bit here. Where can people find you, where can people find more about you, are you accepting new patients? Tell us a little bit more about it.

NP: Yes, I’m accepting new patients. You can go to gordonmedical.com or just look up Gordon Medical Associates and all the information is over there. People come from all over the country particularly for the IV therapies actually. It used to be, when you were talking about socialization, it used to be that we had a big IV suite, and people would sit there and socialize. It would be their hangout time with people just like them, and they loved it! Now we can’t we can’t do it that way with COVID. People have their own private room, and we take all the precautions that we need to in order to make sure that it’s safe in there. But you won’t have company in there anymore…

JC:  But you still do it, and I have patients who have been there. So, again, nothing but good reviews and it’s just been neat to share a few patients once a while that have been back in here, so, I can attest to that. Just the great care. Now the other thing you mentioned. Before you go, you’re doing a summit. Tell us about what’s coming up with the summit.

NP: Yeah, so Dr. Gordon and I are going to be hosting a Mycotoxin and Chronic Illness Summit (July 12-18, 2021) through DrSummits. I’m very excited about it and hopefully you’ll be participating.

JC: I would love to!

NP: It’s going to be in June, okay, so we’re just starting right now. We’re hosting it with Dr. Christine Schaffner.  

JC: Oh wonderful! Because I love this stuff, so if you’re listening, I’ll be sure and if you go to the Facebook page, follow me on Instagram, just @drjillcarnahan, you will see the updates there. I’ll be sure and get information from you guys and share those links. So, if you’re interested in that summit, stay tuned I will have it on all my social media pages for everybody and we’ll share and I would love to be a part of it.

NP: Thank you! We’d love to have you!

JC: Awesome! Well, I can’t believe how quickly our hour goes! I think we’ve got some great information. Thank you so much for being here. We’ve got your website, I’ll be sure to include them. Thanks again for all the great information.

NP: Thank you so much for having me. Such an honor!

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Complex Chronic Illness, Detox and Toxins, Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Nafysa Parpia ND, Video Blogs

They Can’t Find Anything Wrong

So Why Do I Feel So Bad?

Diagnosis at its best implies finding the cause of the disease. Thinking in linear cause and effect mode was reinforced by advances in surgery for traumatic injuries, and in the discovery of antibiotics for infectious disease. The ingrained habit for doctor and patient is to find the right diagnosis and then the correct treatment will be straight forward and hopefully effective.

Chronic complex illness does not follow this pattern. The problem is not just the inciting event or the viral or bacterial trigger. In chronic illness it is the variety of the person’s genetics and environmental experience that often matter more than the triggering event. Environmental experience includes the totality of our life experience: our physical environment, our chemical and electronic exposures, our socio-economic cultural group, and our psychological and spiritual issues and beliefs.

Thanks to metabolomics, we are now starting to see testing that reveals what is happening in the body NOW, as a result of the past and the present coming together.

Find out more at our page on Complex Chronic Illness

 

Hope for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - Image by engin akyurt from PixabayIn medicine doctors usually work toward a diagnosis. Diagnosis at its best implies finding the cause of the disease. Thinking in linear cause and effect mode was reinforced by advances in surgery for traumatic injuries, and in the discovery of antibiotics for infectious disease. The ingrained habit for doctor and patient is to find the right diagnosis and then the correct treatment will be straight forward and hopefully effective.

Chronic complex illness does not follow this pattern. The problem is not just the inciting event or the viral or bacterial trigger. In chronic illness it is the variety of the person’s genetics and environmental experience that often matter more than the triggering event. Environmental experience includes the totality of our life experience: our physical environment, our chemical and electronic exposures, our socio-economic cultural group, and our psychological and spiritual issues and beliefs.

The problem with all symptoms is that they are internal experiences we all struggle to express in ways that another person can understand. This is difficult even when we agree on basic definitions, but doctors are trained to think about symptoms in very specific ways, while patients are not. So often, a stomach ache means one thing to your doctor – a pain somewhere in the area just below your ribs in the midline, or a bit to the left, or maybe to the right of midline of your abdomen. To the patient it could mean a pain below the belly button, or a generalized ache in the entire abdominal area. Maybe the word ache itself doesn’t mean the same thing to patient and doctor, as there are so many types of pain, each indicating something different could be wrong.

How does the diagnostic thinking proceed when you complain of stomach pain? The doctor’s first priority is to rule out, as we say in medical jargon, whether the cause of the pain is life threatening in origin. The appropriate questions and physical exam usually deal with this issue 90% of the time, and depending on your age and sex, may or may not require more in depth investigation. The problem we face with chronic illness is that the stomach pain that you have is usually not the mild gastritis seen on endoscopy, usually attributed to excess acid or H. Pylori infection. For people with chronic illness there may be multiple small stressors to the stomach that can add up to severe stomach problems, but often fail to show up when our focus is ruling out “serious “ problems.

Things that may contribute or even cause severe stomach pain include mild forms of Mast Cell Activation Disorder (MCAD) or (MCAS), intestinal dysbiosis, elevated but “normal” porphyrins, vagal nerve irritation from tight muscles or fascia along the vagal nerve’s course, and musculoskeletal problems – especially of the mid thoracic area, fascial strain patterns in the chest and abdomen or pelvis which affects proper blood and lymph flow to and from the involved organ. Infectious contributors can include low grade infections with Lyme or Bartonella, which would be missed if all you are looking for is H. Pylori. Viral infections, or gall bladder and pancreatic dysfunction can also be missed if you are not looking deeper.

Notice I refer to dysfunction. This includes the mild decrease in function from age and toxins that most of us take in stride. When another mild low grade problem is also present, let’s say a tendency to hypercoagulability, along with being chronically dehydrated, maybe a little low in calcium, and a tendency for your mast cells to over react and release chemicals that cause a bit of swelling, and all come together with a low grade infection, then suddenly the blood supply and lymph drainage hits a tipping point and you have stomach pain. You may also begin to react to foods that never bothered you before, or even to inhaled irritants that end up affecting your stomach.

What is the diagnosis here? All your tests are within normal limits, but you are at the high end of normal in some of these, and the low end in others, or just a bit out of range for normal, but not quite showing a disease. Symptomatic, but all tests “normal.

We tend to blame the immune system, but there is only the body system. We made artificial groupings of bodily functions in order to study and learn how it works. The problem is, we keep forgetting the whole body is a system. We investigate its parts, but it works as a whole.

Our job as medical practitioners isn’t just to look for the inciting cause, the bullet if you will. With chronic complex illness we have to peel back the layers of over and under function of your whole body. We have to find what imbalances in you allowed an insult, whether infection, toxin exposure, physical or emotional trauma, to have caused persistent ongoing symptoms rather than the usual short term illness and recovery.

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Complex Chronic Illness, Detox and Toxins, Eric Gordon MD, Lyme Disease + Coinfections, Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (MCAS), Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Tick Borne Illness

Preventing the Failed Patient – Detoxification

Environmental toxicants impair cellular functions. Lyme/tick-borne disease/co-infections, parasites, and viruses all modulate immune function to their advantage and the host disadvantage. With exposure, the immune system is overactivated, causing hypersensitivity, allergies, mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and/or autoimmunity. The immune system may also be misdirected, and does not mount an appropriate response to infection.

Most of our patients who present with long standing Lyme disease have evidence of a high environmental toxicant load through clinical history and laboratory results. They respond well to therapies that reduce the toxicant load, which leads to normalization of the immune response. Everyone benefits from detox, but in these patients, it is mandatory.

Toxicants that hinder the healing cycle may include: mold toxins, biotoxins and other neurotoxins, heavy metals, high EMF exposure or high sensitivity to it, environmental toxin burden such as high perchlorate, PCBs, glyphosate (Roundup), other pesticides and other chemicals.

Consider whether you:

  • Live/lived in a home with mold or water damage?
  • Live/lived near or on a farm or vineyard? how far from?
  • Live/lived near freeway? How far from?
  • Live/lived in an industrial location?
  • Live/lived in home while it was being renovated?
  • Ever worked with chemicals – artist, dark room, painting/renovating homes, industrial work?
  • Use pesticides, insecticides, herbicides in your garden or your neighbors use them in their gardens?
  • Have metal amalgams in your mouth?

Treatment for toxins needs to precede and be concurrent with herbal and antibiotic treatment of persistent tick-borne disease. It includes appropriate oral, IV and physical detoxification therapies PLUS MCAS treatment. If mast cell activation is on a hair trigger even detox may cause flares.

Biotoxin Issues, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Complex Chronic Illness, Detox and Toxins, Detoxification, Lyme Disease + Coinfections, Nafysa Parpia ND, Toxicity