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What Your Doctor May Not Know

Drs Eric Gordon and Nafysa Parpia deep dive into the many underlying causes of what can keep patients ill.

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Highlights include:

  • Preferred tests and labs
  • Why you shouldn’t settle for a “wastebasket diagnosis”
  • The role of underlying imbalances in your immune system
  • Supporting Long Covid

Chronic illness is all about the individual patient – there is nothing “cookie-cutter” about it. 

There are many underlying diagnostics…so many known and yet to be understood causes of what keeps our patients ill.

Mycotoxins are now often just the tip of the iceberg, there is so much more underneath that needs to be explored, diagnosed, and treated in order to allow patients to return to health. This can feel overwhelming for both doctor and patient.

To learn more about working with Gordon Medical, set up a free discovery call with our new patient coordinator

Autoimmunity, Detox and Toxins, Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Podcasts, Video Blogs

How Do We Get a Patient Ready for Dental Surgery?

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Gordon Medical Systemic Dentist, Alireza Panahpour, DDS, discusses how patients must be prepared and protected before and after dental surgery.

From a talk on Oral Systemic Health, with Nafysa Parpia, ND, part of the Mycotoxins and Chronic Illness Summit 2.0.

Key Points

  • How do we get a patient ready for dental surgery?
  • Remove infections
  • Do chelation, detoxification
  • Address breathing issues
  • Address lymphatic issues
  • Infections can affect the pituitary, other areas of the brain
  • Nun study in Baltimore: 40-50 years of research on the health conditions of a closed group – top three problems in the brain found on autopsy: mercury, aluminum, and biofilm.
  • Heavy metals may be able to travel through the nervous system.. 

Mycotoxins are just one of many things that lead to chronic symptoms. So during the summit, we cover not only mycotoxins but the many layers of complex illness in our interviews. Interviewing our guests interweaves our knowledge with our colleagues that we respect and increases the chances that we will find more ways to help YOU in your healing path.

To learn more about working with Gordon Medical, set up a free discovery call with our new patient coordinator

Alireza Panahpour DDS, Biotoxin Issues, Dental, Events, Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Podcasts, Video Blogs

Mycotoxins and Immune Responses with Dr. Eric Gordon

Dr. Gordon joins the Natural Evolution Podcast with Michael Roesslein, for another episode in this 2-part series diving into the nuances of mycotoxins and immune responses – including how to understand the differentiation of direct toxic effects versus secondary immune responses and the role mycotoxins can play in a variety of conditions.

Did you miss Part I? The first part of this 2-part series is available for listening now! Listen to episode 18 to explore Chronic Inflammation and the Important Cycle of the Cell Danger Response.

The mycotoxins didn’t cause the autoimmune disease… they go in there and they damage how your body talks to itself.

Then — depending on how you’re lined up, you can have rheumatoid arthritis, you can get manic, you can develop severe OCD. It’s not that the mycotoxins caused that. It is how your body responds to it.

Dr. Eric Gordon, Season 2 Episode 18, the natural evolution Podcast

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Podcast Transcript

Michael Roesslein: And we’re live. We only did 27 non-recorded minutes at the beginning of this one. We’re back with another episode with Dr. Eric Gordon, which, you probably just listened to the last one. We’re going to do a follow-up, which is going to be awesome. Dr. Gordon, thanks for coming back, doing two of these. I appreciate it.

Last time, we talked about the cell danger response and mitochondria, and what happens in the body with, well, we actually got into post-viral infection syndromes on accident, and a whole bunch of other things about chronic inflammatory conditions, and how that keeps the body in a state of disease, and the different mechanisms by which it happens, and how there’s no such thing as localized inflammation, really, that when there’s inflammation, there’s inflammation everywhere and what that does.

Today, we’re going to talk about what is really one of the hottest topics in the functional medicine world is mold, and do a deep dive into that. But if anybody didn’t catch, last time, I’m going to give a little intro, before we get rolling.

It’s not chronological, you don’t have to have listened to the last one before you listen to this one. So you can stick around here, then go back and check out the other one, if you haven’t listened to it.

But Dr. Gordon, MD, is the president of Gordon Medical research Center, and the founder and ownere of Gordon Medical associates, a private medical practice in the San Francisco Bay area, specializing in complex chronic disease. In addition to clinical practice of over 30 years, Dr. Gordon is engaged in clinical research.

In 2007 – 2009, he created a series of medical symposia bringing together leading international medical researchers, and cutting edge clinicians, focusing on chronic fatigue syndrome, Lyme disease, autoimmune diseases, and autism, among others. And he has now combined forces, in some ways, with Dr. Robert Naviaux and his research into metabolomics, I always can’t say that word, mitochondrial function and chronic inflammatory disease.

I’ll just give the disclaimer, because I remeber, you did last time, that you mostly supply the patients, and Robert the brains. So…

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah.

Michael Roesslein: That’s in a nutshell, and he’s also our doctor that we work with, personally, with Mira’s, I don’t even know what to call them anymore, multiple, maybe kind of, sort of autoimmune conditions that might be something else, and definitely suck when they happen, and he’s helping us with that. So we work directly with Dr. Gordon ourselves.

And so, mold. I know when this airs, you’re going to be in screening or hosting a Mold in Mycotoxin Summit. Editor’s Note: The Mycotoxins and Chronic Illness Summit 2.0

Before we got on air, I said, “10 years ago, something like a Mold in Mycotoxin summit, everyone would be, ‘What the hell are they doing, or why are they talking about that?’”

Now, over the last 10 years, I’ve watched mold go from some fringe thing that only weird, fringe-y, “I’m really sick forever, and don’t know what’s going on” people would be talking about, to it’s almost the firts thing now, when somebody comes in with some sort of chronic disease, they’re, “Is there mold in your house? If you check for mold, is this mold toxicity?”

What is going on? Is there more mold? Is the mold more angry, or are we more susceptible to getting sick from it?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Wow, it’s always nice to start off with a question that I don’t have a great answer for. Awesome.

Because you got to go back, is that, remember that Dr. Crook, and I’m blocking on names, but he was one of the leaders back in the ’70s, was writing about, in those days, it was Candida people followed on, but that there was something about chronic mold exposure, and mold carriage.

That’s an area that we’ll touch on, because there’s controversy over that. But anyway, but I believe it’s an issue.

That was a big deal, even in the ’70s, ’80s, ’90s, but it was a big deal only in, what, in those days, we called the alternative medicine community, which was much smaller and less part of the population.

And that is a good question. Do we have that much more, or do we have that much more awareness? On one level, I think we have that much more.

In a way, if you think of it, like autism. Autism in the ’60s was a rare condition, okay? Dr. Sidney, Sid Baker, who is, I consider, one of the deans of autism in America.

He’s now a little bit older than me, so he’s old, but he was at Yale in the ’60s, and actually, he was already, probably the late … Yeah, the early ’60s, he was in school there.

And he said, “When there was a kid with autism, I mean, all the residents went to see, it was rare. This was an event. This was a rare disease.”

Now it’s, I don’t know, one in 60, or one in … I mean, it’s insane.

It was one in 10,000, maybe 20-30 years ago. I mean, so things are changing.

Michael Roesslein: When I was growing up, we heard about it, but it wasn’t like we would have known. I didn’t know anybody who was diagnosed on the spectrum in any way. Not within my school.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. Well, the concept of the spectrum was something that I think we, that’s maybe a little newer. It was always there, but I think it was newer. But the amount, it seems to be going like wildfire.

I don’t think it’s just diagnosis, especially for the more severe forms of autism in young kids where they really aren’t able to function in the mainstream. A lot of people are on the spectrum can do fine with a little coaching. But there are lots of kids who just, the environment, everything sets them off.

Anyway, my point is, is that things have changed. Now, I think there was a lot of this before, and it was just unrecognized, but really, I have to admit, I hadn’t thought about this question, but it has dramatically increased now.

We started dealing with mold toxicity, remember, I’m sorry, I said, Dr. Crook. I can’t remember the other doctors who were famous for the yeast early on, the yeast connection in many other books, and I said in the ’70s, ’80s, early ’90s. But Dr. Shoemaker really brought us out in the early 2000s. He really got mold as being an issue.

Now, you remember, Dr. Shoemaker is now saying that he thinks that 80% of the problem in water damaged buildings, anyway, isn’t just mold, but it’s Actinomyces. It’s a bacteria that feeds on water damaged materials, just like mold does.

I mean, basically, mold and these bacteria are ubiquitous, they’re everywhere in the environment. You can’t get away from them, but they don’t tend to produce toxins, unless they get a lot of food for free.

That seems to be the interesting thing about toxin producing creatures, if you will. The same thing seems to happen with the red tides, where you have a whole lot of single cell organisms that are all capable of producing toxins, but don’t usually do much, and then, suddenly, just literally changed the color of the water. [crosstalk 00:08:26].

Michael Roesslein: I lived in Florida for a little bit, and I saw and smelled a red tide once, and it’s something to behold.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. Okay, well, those are algae. I mean, these are single cell organisms, but the point is, they don’t seem to happen, unless they get in a huge food source. Because it takes a lot of energy to make toxins, so you usually save it.

Michael Roesslein: Which are mold, the mold in people’s homes, or in offices or buildings, or things that are going to cause health problems, that’s generally from water damage, of some kind?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, yeah. When they grow, yeah.

Because we see that they’re there, but without moisture, most of them can’t reproduce to the level that they’re going to start producing enough toxins.

Michael Roesslein: I got it. A significant amount of, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. Because just, seeing, we all get, you see a little mold around a window sill, I mean, that’s a hint that you’ve got excess humidity. So you should take it seriously, but that’s usually not what’s making you sick. It’s usually inside your …

Michael Roesslein: It’s the wall covered in mold that’s behind your drywall that you don’t see, or the floor covered in mold underneath the tile, that you don’t see.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Exactly, yeah.

It usually takes quite a bit to get you. But again, those are telltale signs that the humidity in the house will be too high.

There are a few molds that can grow in low humity, but something called Wallemia. But basically, most of them need a fair amount of [crosstalk 00:09:57].

Michael Roesslein: So it’s a combination of, there’s more people getting sick from mold, that’s true. And we are much better at recognizing it, or especially diagnostics.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, but you know, definitely-

Michael Roesslein: I’ve seen eight different mycotoxin tests get released in the last five years.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Oh, yeah. Well, no, and I was working on one myself. No, no, there’s definitely, I have to say, I think it is getting worse. I can, because I know we saw mold people for a long time. I said, when I first started doing this stuff in the ’80s, and really got into it, and full-time in the ’90s, we saw a lot of people with mold, but like you say, now it seems like almost everybody, well, not everybody, but, a lot of the people with chronic Lyme also now have a mold on top.

And it could be also, remember, what’s changed is, our buildings have become much tighter. Now, that’s a great way to increase humidity, and trap it in the house, is a tight building. I mean, I’ve lived in old houses, and old houses can have a lot of mold. But they also have a lot of ventilation. And that can make it [crosstalk 00:11:12].

Michael Roesslein: You can call it ventilation, you can call it unsealed roofs, I mean …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, well, okay.

But yeah. No, I think, put it like this, air exchanges. [crosstalk 00:11:19] …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, a lot more air exchange between the inside and the outside, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. If you’ve got a house that’s got one air exchange an hour, well, you got a really tight house that you’re going to have … If you have a little bit of mold, you can have a big problem. Okay?

Just the same way as you hook up the same problem with the off-gassing from the chemicals in your house. Because, I mean, these will all play roles, and it’s very hard to piece out which is doing what.

Because it is that you think it might be the mold. But if you have a really tight house, you might be just having a lot of volatile, organic compounds from stuff that you bought.

Michael Roesslein: In carpet, furniture, cleaning products, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, exactly. Because the thing that determines the level of symptoms is your genetic susceptibility. Because the reason we have such arguments over the validity of mold, and as a cause of illness, because I mean, remember, people are still fighting about this.

I mean, we know that mold can cause illness. That, everybody agrees with, okay? But the idea that background levels in houses, or how do you say, moderate levels in house, where one person is sick, and five others are asymptomatic. The fact that that’s…

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. Why is that?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Because we’re different. Hey, one guy can eat …

Michael Roesslein: The mold has been a factor in all three of Mira’s flares. There’s been a mold exposure that was involved in all three of them, and I didn’t get sick.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right.

Michael Roesslein: So, I mean …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. And especially, because, she wound up, she’s a very good example of how this can be indirect, is that she wound up with an autoimmune disease, of where her immune system lost its balance. This is a very good example.

And mold, usually, I mean, there’s one mold, what is it, mycophenolic acid, that we even make into a medicine called Cellcept, that’s used as an immune suppressant.

Michael Roesslein: Interesting.

Dr. Eric Gordon: But for her disease, for instance, that’s why it’s always so important that people understand that the immune system is all about balance. If you suppress your T health, the regulatory parts of your immune system, you can wind up with an autoimmune disease.

Normally, we think of T-cells suppress, I mean, immune suppressors, as treating autoimmune disease, because they do. But there are natural ones that can actually suppress or down regulate the cells that would actually control your immune system from overreacting.

One of the things we have is that if you knock out your cells, that being your NK cells, your Natural Killer cells. Well, the, suddenly you can get a lot of viral flares. And it’s not because…

Michael Roesslein: You get cancer, right?

Dr. Eric Gordon: … You won’t get cancer. But I mean, it can happen, probably, with mold. It can happen. I mean, that’s what COVID does. It knocks down your NK cells, your Natural Killer cells, and a lot of your cytotoxic T-cells.

That’s why people have a lot of flares of viral infections. some people with Epstein-Barr and stuff will flare after COVID.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, I saw that one study that showed pretty high correlation between high levels of Epstein-Barr, and more severe COVID.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, but it’s probably …

Michael Roesslein: But cases, it was pretty statistically relevant.

Dr. Eric Gordon: … Yeah. But it’s probably because you’ve lowered the cytotoxic T-cells, which means …

Michael Roesslein: The COVID drove up the Epstein-Barr.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, well, and so, suddenly, the Epstein-Barr can come out and play, before you can suppress. So it’s this lack of linearity, which we keep coming back to. You know how I talk about things that we have to remember.

So, mold illness has gone up. I mean, that’s what we’re seeing, because we’ve been treating this a long time. We always have talked about what to treat first, and I always look at the progression of things.

When we started really understanding that all these things were happening in the same patient we’d see, our people, we thought, had Lyme disease. Then somewhere in the late ’90s, early 2000s, we started to go, “Oh, my God, they have Babesia, also. You have to treat the Babesia first.”

A little later, we realized, “Oh, Bartonella is the big part here.” So the teaching became, “You got to treat the Bartonella first,” and those are “kind ofs.” But they’re not, people took them as absolutes, because people like rules, but sometimes, you do need to come out …

Michael Roesslein: It makes things easier to have a set of order, that you have to treat things in, though, or an order that they happen in.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah.

Michael Roesslein: I mean, we’re pattern recognition brains. We need to have that kind of …

This is where these treatments become more of an art than a science, when you have to factor in the …

Dr. Eric Gordon:

Well, that’s, you see, you said it right there. Our brains work, our brains are designed to be good engineers, okay? That’s what we do really well is, we can do, be a good engineer.

But when you’re working with things, that they’re, when you’re from the inside, you can’t be just an engineer. Because you don’t have all the data, and you can’t measure things completely. So you really are much more of an artist, but you got to keep the engineer piece happening, but just don’t think it’s everything.

So yeah, it is nice to realize that there often is a level. Just like now, we realize, is that you often have to treat the mast cells, before you can treat the mold. And you often have to treat the mold and the mycotoxins before you can get to any of the bugs.

And whether you have to treat the viruses or the bacterial ones first, that kind of depends more on the person. And it always depends more on the person, okay?

It’s not an absolute. But it makes sense that when the mast cells, those are your immune cells, these are the most primitive immune cells. I think we talked about them last time, maybe we hit on them.
They really talk right to your nervous system, that’s one of the things, I mean, all immune systems have neurotransmitters on them, and release and respond to serotonin and dopamine, and stuff like that.
But the mast cells are really keyed into the brain, and they often talk right to the nerves, to the vagus, because they’re in the tissue, and they’ll feed back the information. So, if those mast cells are really reactive, it’s very hard to do much in people who are overly sensitive without setting them off, without getting the mast cells to be a little quieter.

But it’s a circle. Once you lower the underlying inflammation, the mast cells will tend to quiet down, and stay quiet, even. So mold, I just say, has blown up, and it’s like I’ve lived with it.

I said you asked me what sounds, that I’m thinking about it, it’s such an obvious question. Why is this suddenly such a big deal? And yeah, because I do remember, mold was a thing, and we treated it.
I remember when I first got to California, there was an ear, nose and throat doctor in San Francisco, who was measuring IgG molds. Because that’s something most doctors don’t do. But molds cause more of an IgG immune response, not the alert. Because, usually, when we think of mold, we think of allergy, which is a byproduct.

Michael Roesslein: Which is IgE, right?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Which normally is IgE. By definition, it’s IgE. See, this is the engineering brain again. They defined allergy as being mediated by IgE. So if it’s mediated by IgG, it’s not an allergy. Okay?

Michael Roesslein: Because we have to have a name for it, but the person gets sick.

Dr. Eric Gordon: But the person gets sick. You get headaches, you don’t feel good, and that’s one of the important things that I like people to understand about mold illness. You can have mold allergies. You can have allergy to mycotoxins. Or you can have a toxic affect from mycotoxins.

Michael Roesslein: Let’s stop for one second. I just want to cover that word. Because we’ve said “toxin,” and molds produce toxins, and we’re using the word “mycotoxin.” A mycotoxin is not a mold.

Dr. Eric Gordon: No.

Michael Roesslein: A mycotoxin is something a mold produces. Is it a byproduct, or a metabolite, or is it actually a weapon? What’s the …

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s a weapon. I mean, it’s how mold bacteria and molds produce toxins to kill other bacteria and molds, penicillin. I mean, these are all infectious toxins.

Michael Roesslein: We think it’s a medicine, but that’s because it kills a whole bunch of things when you take it.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. Exactly. But all we …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. It’s a medicine to me, it’s a poison to the other things that are in my body.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. And it’s produced by bacteria, and molds. Actually, molds produce bacteria, so I’m sorry, penicillin is NC. So mycotoxins are just what molds produce to protect themselves, to make more growth area that’s safe for them. The thing is, when they’re in nature, there’s so many of them. And they’re all fighting for survival, that production is usually on the small side. Unless they get into a really large colony.

Michael Roesslein: Okay, because they’re fighting on the microscopic level against a whole bunch of other things, and rarely in nature are you going to find a wall of a certain kind of mold …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, right, exactly. They can, pretty much …

Michael Roesslein: We’ve created the environment for that to exist.

Dr. Eric Gordon: To exist. So mycotoxins are part of the fungal world’s immune system, in a way. Okay?

I mean, that’s it. It’s just how they deal with other critters, and our bodies are perfectly capable of dealing with low levels of these, by either making an antibody to it, or just chemically breaking it down, binding it.

Glutathione’s a big deal, because a lot of these guys bind sulfur, take two sulfur atoms, and bind to them, and glutathione can offer that, and then sacrifice itself, and get rid of this thing. But if you’re not good at making glutathione, you will get sicker quicker, if you get exposed to a lot of these mycotoxins.

So that’s the neat point to remember is, you got molds, and you got mycotoxins, and you can have allergy to mold. You can be somebody who maybe eats, some people have trouble with food that’s been out for a few days, any kind of yesterday’s lunch, to some, people can get them sick, because mold does grow. And that little bit of mold will cause a reaction.

Usually, that’s an allergy response, the mold, I mean, occasionally it’ll produce enough mycotoxin, that maybe they’re that sensitive to the mycotoxin levels. But most of us eat stuff that’s been sitting out for a day and don’t notice it.

Other people have to wash their fruit in hydrogen peroxide. Because if they don’t, the amount of mold that’s on the outside will cause allergic reactions. So, in part …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. So I guess we could talk about that, because that’s one aspect. Because yes, more people are sick, yes, we’re recognizing more, yes, we’re building more buildings that make more mold. But there’s more people, percentage-wise, of people, that if you put them around the mold now, they’ll get sick, then there was 20 years ago.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Probably, probably.

It sure looks like that, it sure looks like that, yes.

Michael Roesslein: I’d like you to solve that problem right now, and tell me exactly why that is.

Dr. Eric Gordon: As I said, I think it’s the same reason. We’re looking at death by a thousand cuts. Everybody wants to be one thing. EMFs. I mean, EMFs screw with our body’s ability to dance with [EDs 00:24:12].

I mean, it’s like, if you’re a great dancer, you can ignore that your partner is klutzy. But if you’re not a good dancer…

Michael Roesslein: If you were trying to dance with me, for instance, you could still look good.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, right. But it’s the interactions, it’s the balance of things. So you’ve got EMFs, they’re screwing with how your body can inform itself, in information flow, energy flow in the system. But for most of us, it’s fairly mild. For some of us, it’s really big.

Again, it seems, in my worldview, it’s probably, it just varies. If you’ve got other toxins, if you’re eating, I mean, what we’ve done to food.

Okay, so food. I mean, the EMFs, I think, are bigger than we know. But that’s a hard one, because unless you’re an engineer, it’s really hard to parse what’s real and what’s not.

Because the information, if you’re not grounded in physics, it gets quickly into places we don’t know. I know enough to know that it’s real, okay?

And I know enough people who, you can just see how you can cause nausea, headaches, inability to think, by being in the wrong environment, and you take them out of that environment, and half an hour later, they’re better. I mean, it’s really clear, you just shut the electric off in the house, and they’re better.

So it’s clear that they’re telling us, that a lot of that, these EMFs are really important, from a million different reasons. But I just think, the food, I mean, you can’t get away from the food and water.

I mean, just the amount of chemicals that are in our water supply, the crappy food that people eat, the fact that most people don’t eat real food. I mean, I live in a bubble. I live in Northern California, and it is a food bubble, where the grocery store, I mean, even the mainstream grocery stores, have organic sections in them.

I don’t live in a place where you have to, where you’re doing your shopping at a 7-Eleven, to buy food. I mean, when you think about what’s in that kind of store as food? Yeah, you’re going to have a lot of sick people. Because you’re feeding them stuff that their body has to detoxify at such basic levels.

You’re feeding them chemicals that aren’t meant to be food. I mean, food. I mean, you always have to have a short one. I mean, chemical food is chemicals, yes, just like GMOs are…

Michael Roesslein: Non-food chemicals are in the food, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Non-food chemicals are taking up more and more. And the high fructose corn syrup, the things that drive high fructose corn syrup, it drives insulin. Your body can’t modulate that response, I mean, when you take in glucose.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, that’s the most commonly used form of sugar in processed foods, for sure.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s probably causing a lot of the non-alcoholic liver disease that we’re seeing, that’s another epidemic. Anyway, so I’m kind of getting off this. I’m trying to make a point, and the point being …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, but it’s a million things contributing to people being more susceptible to …

Dr. Eric Gordon: To toxins, that we have more of them, and your body is less able to deal with them. Because the way you deal with them, these toxins are often poisoning some very primitive parts of the system.

So they’re going after, lot of these are going after your ribosomes. Ribosomes are where you actually make, you take the amino acids, and you kind of stick them together, and make them into proteins, which become the enzymes. They’re the machinery of your body. I mean, that’s what basically enzymes are.
They’re the machines. The raw materials are more, we call them metabolites. So if your machines don’t work, you can’t do much. Doesn’t matter how much nutrients you put in. This is why there’s no one important piece in the body.

A lot of these mycotoxins go after basic units. Now they also go after the membranes of mitochondria, they interfere with mitochondrial DNA. They interfere at multiple levels, but they’re exceedingly toxic stuff. But the beauty of the system is that your body can repair this. We’re not helpless, okay?

But when we’ve already been depleted, and we don’t have enough true nutrients in our system. And when our bodies had to use up, I don’t want to focus on that, but it’s antioxidant reserves, just because of the garbage that you’re eating? Instead of the food being a source of the materials that are being pumped.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. Instead of it contributing to healing, it’s contributing to the disease process.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Exactly. They’re weakening you.

Go eat an American meal, and you’re weakening yourself. I mean, between the GMOs, between the grains? I mean, like you’re in Italy now.

Michael Roesslein: They eat grains here, but they’re not hybridized, they’re not sprayed in chemicals, they’re not GMO, they’re not crossbred.

They’re not all these, they’re the same grains that the Italian people have been eating for 2,000 years.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, and they get it. No, because, I mean, I am wheat, gluten sensitive. I don’t have celiac disease. But if I eat a lot …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. You just don’t feel good.

You just don’t feel good when you eat it.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, no, I get fatigued. Not all the time, but I get fatigued. It’s an allergy thing. I mean, I get this … When I was a kid, I didn’t know what was going on. I’d have to slap myself to stay awake.

I mean, it’s just transient. It’d be, for instance, 15 minutes, I would just be tired. I never knew what it was. And then, finally…

Michael Roesslein: Does that happen when you’re in Europe, or when you’re …

Dr. Eric Gordon: No, that’s my point of my story, is that I remember, the thing that really shocked me, I was there, okay? I was with people, and somebody’s father owned a pizzeria, and it was a big deal, “My father makes the best pizza, [inaudible 00:31:02].”

Michael Roesslein: Oh, you can’t turn that down, or they’ll kick you out of the country.

Dr. Eric Gordon: You go there, and I was trying to be polite, and we had a little bit, and it was really good. And then they made too many pizzas. We took them with us. The next two days, I ate these pizza, and I felt fine. I mean, I was blown away by the difference in [inaudible 00:01:23].

Michael Roesslein: It happens a lot, like it happens for a lot of people.

I’ve had two … I’ve only been here a month. For those listening, I live in Italy, and I moved here about a month before this recording. I don’t know the locals. So having two people ask me in a month, which, I’ve had about five total conversations, two of them, they asked me about American food.

Because they sell processed snack foods here. They’re not super popular. But if you go to the supermarket, you can find Pringles, or certain American snack foods. But the ingredients list is different.

They’re not great, it’s not ideal, but there’s colorings, and preservatives, and certain types of chemicals and things that are not allowed to be put into food here. Even by the garbage food, like that kind of food.

It’s not like I would recommend people live off that, but they asked me, because they know that. They know that American food allows ingredients in it that are illegal in the European Union. And they were like, I’m going to be the one that’s going to be able to explain this to them.

They’re like, “Why do you allow this?” I’m like, “Well, it’s not really my call, so I don’t allow it.”

But they were confused by this, because it’s such a fundamental thing to them, their food, and the quality of their food. It’s such an important thing, they can’t understand why it’s not so there, why …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Because it’s economics in America for the last 70 years.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, since the ’50s.

Dr. Eric Gordon: All the schools of nutrition have been funded by the people who make junk food.

I mean, really, the whole thing, everything …

Michael Roesslein: So they convinced the entire country that TV dinners are the most nutritious thing you can do, in the ’50s.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Oh, yeah. Every school of nutrition in America, like in Boston, in Pennsylvania, that was where Kellogg was, and in Iowa and the Midwest, where it’s all the big dairy, and …

Michael Roesslein: Soybean, corns, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: And they control the information flow, you know what I mean, and it’s not that …

Again, it’s a little close to not being, it’s not evil, but it’s, “Here’s your grant money.”

Michael Roesslein: It’s putting money over the well-being of an entire society.

You can call it what you want to call it, but that’s it is.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. It’s what it is, it is.

Michael Roesslein: Or evil, whatever, it’s a debate, what is evil?

But it’s some people being, “I want to make a whole lot of money, and I don’t care what the consequences of it are at all.”

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, it’s often by … Well, okay, I won’t go into that, but I agree with you. But usually, it’s only a handful of people who don’t care about the consequences. The rest of them care about the consequences. But they if it turns out to, “Ooh, wait a minute, but I want my grant, and I’m going to do this. Okay.”

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, and my stock portfolio looks good, and my 401k is going up, and my retirement’s going to be sound, so let’s just leave all this alone.

But hold on. We’re going way too far away, so …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, I know. We’re going all over the place.

Michael Roesslein: The food sucks, and the food is not supporting people, it’s depleting.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s depleting.

Michael Roesslein: We have exposure. You mentioned VOCs.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. Well, volatile organic compounds, which is something that Actinomyces makes quite a bit of, actually, it’ll be interesting. It’s that kind of musty smell, where you get in a building?

That’s usually where the Actinomyces is, in the mold. I mean, so maybe Dr. Shoemaker has a tendency to be, I think, sometimes, to overstate things. But he often turns out to be right, at least … Yeah, I mean, I have great respect for Rich. I mean, I think he has taught me an immense amount, and…

Michael Roesslein: He was the first place I ever heard of or learned about mold, about 10 years ago, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. He’s the man who really pushed this, the information out there. He’s done a lot of, I mean, creative thought, I have to say, his ability to bring us markers. And hat’s one thing I just want to mention for the people out there.

The markers that many people look at in what’s now CIRS, now it’s chronic. He really doesn’t talk about mold anymore. It’s mostly Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome, which is basically what happens when you’re chronically inflamed, and mold can be one of the causes of that.

The markers in those tests are not mold specific. That’s one of the great sadnesses is that we still don’t have great things that I’m 100% sure are mold specific, and I’ll expand on that in a minute.

But just the markers, the VEGF, and the TGF-beta-1, and the C4A, MMP9, none of these are mold specific. So they’re not [inaudible 00:36:25] enough.

Michael Roesslein: So there’s other things that can throw those off?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. They’re just markers that your innate immune system is pissed off, and you’re just regulating, okay? Yeah. You can get there by multiple ways. I mean …

Again, if you have a mold exposure, and these are really high, and it goes down when you get away from it, in your body, that’s what’s going on. So it’s not that they’re bad, it’s just that they’re not one to one. Don’t stop looking just because you do a test, and you have these things, it doesn’t mean you have mold. You have to have a few other…

Michael Roesslein: And the mycotoxin tests, I remember when Great Plains came out with their mycotoxin test.

It was like, everyone was, “Oh, my God, this is going to be the greatest thing ever,” and it’s cool. It’s interesting to see. We’ve taken them when Mira has been sick, and for the first time, she had one million okra toxin A, and the second time, she had one million of one other kind. And so you know there’s mold, but that shows you the urine tests, they show you what is coming out of the body.

Dr. Eric Gordon: I know.

Michael Roesslein: So it’s very possible for some people that are totally inhibited in clearing any of these things, that their mold mycotoxin urine tests, which show pretty decent levels, because it’s all in their body, and not coming out of the body.

that’s the same with metals tests and different things. So yeah, I was disappointed to learn that. [crosstalk 00:37:54]. I thought we were onto something.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. Exclusion, excretion does not prove toxicity, but it does prove exposure, which is nice. I mean, that’s the thing, is that we have, just to be fair, we have RealTime, which does an ELISA, which is more of an antibody kind of test. And, I think, I always want to call them Vibrant America, call them Virgin America, Vibrant America, which is…

Michael Roesslein: The airplanes.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, I know, but … Marketing got me.

I forget if they’re doing mass spec, or … I think they’re doing antibody also, and Great Plains does mass spec. The nice part about a mass spec test is, mass spec really doesn’t lie.

I mean, they have real machines. I’ve spoke on it several times. In fact, he’s on our summit, the fellow who developed the test for them, Dr. Matt Pratt-Hyatt, yeah. But Matt is a great, I mean, I think, a wonderful scientist who really is thoughtful, and cares a lot about people, and he developed this really cool test.

But it’s not, it doesn’t tell us what we’d like it to tell us, which is, “Oh my God, you’re high, you’re sick. This is the problem.”

 We’d love it to be that linear. “We measured your blood count, your hemoglobin hematocrit are low. You have anemia.”

This test? [inaudible 00:39:25], not there quite yet. The numbers are high. You are being exposed, but are you being exposed enough to make you sick? My kind of figure is, if you’re 10 times above their upper limit of normal, it’s not good.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:39:43] Both of ours were extreme, extreme, extreme.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. So there’s something going on. If there’s two to three to five something, it could possibly be even from food, because there’s a lot of mold in food. I mean, that we understand …

That we’ve learned about mycotoxins, mostly from the agricultural world. The studies of mycotoxins in people is meager.

Yeah, it’s just meager. But on animals, there’s a ton, going back to the economic articles of the world, is because if your cow dies, it costs you a thousand bucks, or a few thousand dollars, okay?

If a person dies, it’s very upsetting to all of us involved, but guess what? There’s no direct economic loss to the owner. I mean, that sounds terrible, but that’s …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, I know, but it’s that, we’re back to the situation.

Dr. Eric Gordon: I mean, why the [crosstalk 00:40:36] is so bad is because it screws up the economy. Okay, that’s life, but …

Getting back to, so we know a lot of that …

Michael Roesslein: We’ll cover politics on the next podcast.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Another one of yeah, we’ll go to the basics, which is, “We’re human, and that’s going to be messy.”

But anyway, so mycotoxins are in our foods. They’re just always been there a little bit. The more they’re in storage, the more they are. Sometimes even organic foods, because they’re not sprayed, can even have more mycotoxins. Oops. I still think they’re much better.

Michael Roesslein: Things like coffee, and beans and stuff, that sits for a really long time in a storage facility?

Dr. Eric Gordon: Time, yeah. Very, very high, they can’t have a … But most of us, you’re okay with these background levels.

Anyway, so when you see, but when you see more than 10 times the upper limit of normal, okay. Something’s really going on there. And if you’ve got symptoms, even if it’s lower, it very well might be related.

I mean, even if it’s two times normal, it could be for you too much, just like with the mercury test, some of the sickest people with mercury I’ve seen, have had very low excretion levels, because their body, like you said, is not able to mobilize it.

Okay. Now, the other argument, though, is that these mycotoxins that we see with the Great Plains test are not metabolized.

RealTime is looking at, as an antibody test, which will get the partially metabolized and unmetabolized mycotoxins. But is that better or worse? No, it’s different.
Because if you metabolize them, they may or may not still be active. Because some of the metabolites are more toxic, and many of the metabolites are what our body did to make them nontoxic. So we’re left with not great tests.
There’s another test called, I didn’t mean to, oh, we might as well give people some information about, called My Myco, in America, that looks at antibodies to the mycotoxins, which is very interesting. Because most of the tests we can get in America are antibodies to the molds themselves, the fusarium, the [inaudible 00:43:02], penicillium, all these molds.
We can get antibodies to them, because they’re good, because a lot of people who are sensitive to mycotoxins also have allergies to mold, which compound, because that will get your mast cells going. Just understand that this is why …

Michael Roesslein: They don’t make you more reactive to anything else that you come in contact with.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right. My thing is why I’ve been trying, myself and Dr. Parpia, have been lecturing to some of the societies, to try to get people to, and people don’t like these lectures because they’re confusing.

But to remember, that all this is happening simultaneously, and people have Lyme, have mold, have mast cell, have the BCF, have EBV, the question is, which one is driving the show, in that person at that time?

Some people only have one, but lots of people got a lot of them, and it doesn’t mean you have to … So it’s a teaching people how to dance.

And unfortunately, we have a bunch of doctors, who are just doing CIRS, or just treating Lyme, or just treating mast cell. And it’s not bad, I mean, and that works for a bunch of people.

So God bless when it works, but when it’s not working? Step back and realize you got that. It’s not you don’t have mast cell stuff, but you also have other things.

 It’s like having people with chronic fatigue, you can have chronic fatigue, and you can also have this other junk. Chronic fatigue often is the end result of not treating the other stuff, but it can be mixed in.

Anyway, so getting back to, the testing for mold and mycotoxins is not great. All we can tell you is that you’ve been exposed to lots of mold. So that makes it high likelihood, check out your house, check out your food sources.

Food, not necessarily a huge thing, unless you’re really sensitive. The house and the home environment, and your car, those are big deals. Check them out.

And there, I forget the name of the group, oh, I shouldn’t mean that, but there is a group of, oh, what are they called, ISE? But there is a, really, I apologize.

Editor’s Note: International Society for Environmentally Acquired Illness (ISEAI). Dr. Gordon is a member, and Dr. Parpia is a board member.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, yeah, yeah. An episode earlier, I don’t even know what order everything’s going in, but in this season, for those listening, there’s an episode with someone named Cathy Cooke. And she is a building biologist.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Wonderful.

Michael Roesslein: She does EMFs and mold. It’s a full-on building inspector type person.

It’s really cool, I learned a ton of stuff. And she can work a lot of things remotely now, they’ve learned how to do a lot of it, like send you a monitor and they walk you through. It’s like having a Ghostbuster telling you what to do. That’s what I felt like, with the gizmo. But yeah, Cathy Cooke, check out that episode.

I don’t know what the organization is, but she’s one of those people.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, yeah, that’s one of them, and this guy, Michael [Schranz 00:46:07], who I think is president of the group. Just because you’ve got to be careful when you … I don’t want you looking in houses.

I hate it, because it’s expensive. and it’s life altering, and it really can increase the family’s stress, which is the thing we hate to see, when people already are having problems. You’re sick, your spouse isn’t.

Michael Roesslein: Now you got to remediate your bathroom for $16,000.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, and now you’re spending a lot of, and not just on your doctor, but you’re now going to spend a lot of money on changing the house. Not the greatest thing for familial happiness and tranquility.

Michael Roesslein: No, I’ve been through that. We’ve had to move three times because of it.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, so it’s a hard sell.

Michael Roesslein: And while Mira was sick, we had to move.

That’s even more …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:46:55] But hold on.

I want to give a minor course correction.

Because we need to explain a little bit before we go, because I wanted to cover … Part of the reason why mold is such a problem is because there’s, you’ve talked about this a little bit.

There’s all these overlapping mold and Lyme, and neurological issues and autoimmune conditions, and rheumatoid arthritis, which, I mean, we’ve been diagnosed, undiagnosed, misdiagnosed with that, in our house. Is the mold, the mycotoxin, what the hell do these things do when they get in the body, that they’re linked to so many different overlapping, correlated … Is it causation? Is it correlation?

Are people more susceptible to autoimmune disease is also more likely to be reactive to mold? Or is the mold making the autoimmune conditions happen, or making the neurological diseases happen, or …
Well, I understand. That’s always the approach.

Michael Roesslein: Or do they rewire the immune system? What the hell is going? It’s such a sloppy mess, and so …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, it’s sloppy, yes. Imagine, think of the molds as the cytokines of the microbacteria wall of the mold world. These are chemicals that these bugs are producing, to go in and influence other cells, okay, and …

Michael Roesslein: That aren’t theirs.

Dr. Eric Gordon: That aren’t theirs, okay?

So they go in, and they make holes in the cell membrane, some of them. Some of them just will, well, that’s probably more of an accidental thing. There’s a few that actually work as estrogen binders, and things like that. But that’s, I don’t know if the mold planned that one. I think that’s

Michael Roesslein: That’s probably just to the proliferation of estrogen in the natural world, the receptors, and mold and things, probably do that, but …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Right, there are so many things, in essence, that’s a ubiquitous molecule. That’s what we always forget, that these all have room to grow.

Michael Roesslein: They might be accidentals, but …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, it may. Who knows?

Michael Roesslein: But it can fit in other receptors, then, I’m sure.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Exactly, exactly. But anyways, but a lot of these molds, like I said, they disrupt protein translation. So they disrupt how you make proteins. They disrupt the cell wall. In the mitochondria, they can disrupt the electron transport chain. They can disrupt mitochondrial DNA, because mitochondria have their own DNA in them, and also, some of the nuclear DNA that makes parts of the mitochondria. They can hurt that directly.

There are so many of these mycotoxins, that is the thing. They’re not like five myoctoxins, there’s hundreds that we discover.

So you, when you asked the question, which is the basic question, are these causing, are these just interrupting, interfering with our immune system?

Or do these cause disease directly? I got to say, it’s probably both, because they do cause an amazing oxidant reserve stress. They suck up, not just glutathione, but many other antioxidants, they suck up lots of free electrons. Or they produce lots of free electrons in the wrong places.

In that way, they can cause, probably neurologic, and again, in the right genetics, that amount of oxidative stress can cause disease, neurodegenerative disease, and probably trigger autoimmune disease, by causing inflammation in the organ, whether it’s the thyroid, or the joint capsule, where your immune system is already primed to be a little, not so good at suppressing an antigen.

Because that’s what happens. Your immune system sees a chemical, a protein that it normally doesn’t see. But if it’s one of your own, when it goes back into the lymph node, it should be destroyed. It should be recognized.

Now we don’t want to amplify this signal. This is a self signal, and so, some of us just don’t do that well. So yeah, there’s not a linearity here.

I hear your question, and I think the answer is, is probably, mostly, that the mycotoxins disrupt our antioxidant defenses, and our ability to our T- and B-cells are, just all of our immune, even our monocytes, that they interfere with the function of these cells, because that’s what they’re designed to do.

And then, however your body reformulates that, I mean, that’s not a satisfying thing. But it’s like, you’re dropping the wrench into the machinery. And it depends where it clangs, what sprocket it gets stuck in.

Michael Roesslein: That’s good, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: I mean, really, it’s a bad thing. Now, sometimes it’s designed to go into one particular receptor, and cause havoc, but lots of times, it’s that it causes havoc there. But the havoc only depends on whether you have a T-cell that is already not very good at responding to the signal to stand down, to not keep reproducing.

Because if that T-cell listened to the stop signal really well, even though it got the abnormal information, it would have gotten this normal stop signal. But if it’s not good at listening to the normal stop signal, well, that little bit of misinformation now gets multiplied.

 Suddenly, you’ve got T-cells that are aimed at your joint. Okay? But that never should happened. I mean …

Michael Roesslein: It reminds me of this marketing campaign from, is it All State Insurance, or State Farm Insurance, or one of those insurance companies? Probably, I don’t know. Years after the ’90s, to me, they’re all the same, so I don’t know. There’s been two decades since then, but there was, the ’50s were distinct, the ’60s, ’70s, ’80s, ’90s, To me, when we hit 2000, everything’s the same since then. But sometimes, since then, there was a marketing campaign, where there’d be this guy for a car insurance company, and they called him Mayhem.

He would just kind of walk around, and then he’d throw a banana up in the air, just backwards. And a car would drive by, and it would hit the windshield, and cause the car to spin out and hit a pole.

Then he would dump a bucket of paint on the ground while he was walking. And then, somebody would come, and they’d track the paint into the thing, and it would light on fire. And this guy didn’t care. He wasn’t intentional, he wasn’t trying to harm anybody. He just threw things, and knocked things over, and did whatever. And it broke everything around him.

Obviously, this is why you need to buy their insurance, but …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, and so, on mycotoxin …

Michael Roesslein: It sounds kind of like that.

Dr. Eric Gordon: But remember, mycotoxin has an intent. It wants to inhibit some function of your cell.

Michael Roesslein: Okay.

Dr. Eric Gordon: The question is, if it just did that, and the cell either died, or bound that mycotoxin, and removed it? It would be a problem. The thing is, is that, right, when it continues to spiral out of control, that’s when we get these other secondary diseases. I think the mycotoxin itself will cause dysfunction in the organ, okay? That then …

Michael Roesslein: And the things that maintain the balance get screwy.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Like, rheumatoid arthritis is a secondary event. Yeah, I think I can be clear there. Yeah. Now, I had to unpack your question a little bit more.

So yes, mycotoxins go in there. They do not cause rheumatoid arthritis. Mycotoxins go in, and will poison or interfere with the function of some of your T- and B-cells and some of your, what we call monocytes, and dendritic cells, that then process immune information.

So therefore, you can then gobbledygook up your immune information, and wind up with an autoimmune disease. But the mycotoxin didn’t cause the autoimmune disease, it just screwed up the information. Either it damaged some of the cells that should have been processing the information, okay?

That’s what it’s about. They go in there, and they damage how your body talks to itself. And then, depending on how you’re lined up, you can have rheumatoid arthritis, you can get manic, you can get anxious, you can develop severe OCD.

I mean, look, what happens with PANS and PANDAS. People can get all kinds of bizarre, emotional, mental, psychological states that are generated by inflammation in certain cells. It’s not that the bacteria caused that. It’s how your body responds to it, being unable to modulate its own response. So it’s all about modulation.
Your whole system takes information in, and then, depending on the health, and I always think … Think of it as balance.

When you are fairly athletic, and you trip, you don’t fall.

You do a skip, skip, skip, and you’re fine. But when you’ve lost your balance, you hit your leg on it. Your toe catches the edge of the carpet, and you’re down for the count.

Michael Roesslein: I’m learning about those things now, I’m starting to … Yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Well, no, no, this is the whole point of health. Health is not, not falling, or not tripping, but health is not getting hurt when you do. Okay? It’s not about never being exposed to this stuff. It’s about when you’re exposed, being able to dance with it.

I mean, we should limit our exposure, but I’m just saying, but when the body is healthy, you can deal with most of these, most of this crap. Though, I said, we are putting more and more, it’s like the …

Michael Roesslein: Got you.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Now you’re taking the trained athlete and blindfolding them, and putting them in a kid’s room, with all kinds of crap on the floor.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, yeah. You’re tying their arms together, yeah.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, yeah. Well, one of these days, you’re going to fall.

Michael Roesslein: So we only have a few minutes left.

You’re hosting right now, when this is going live, “There’s a Mold and Mycotoxin Summit that’s going on,” that we’ll have a link below, probably a little banner, be very easy to find.

Tons more information on mold. I’m sure that, I mean …

Dr. Eric Gordon: Let me just tell you a little bit about that, because it’s on mold and chronic illness. Because to me, the mold is the problem, when the cause is a chronic illness, or when it is on top of a chronic illness.

So it’s unpacking that, again, in the early years, when Dr. Shoemaker was first working in this, he actually believed that most of the people with mold in the early days had had Lyme first, which interfered with IL-10 and a few other cytokines, that allowed the people to lose the ability to respond well.

So it’s unpacking that, again, in the early years, when Dr. Shoemaker was first working in this, he actually believed that most of the people with mold in the early days had had Lyme first, which interfered with IL-10 and a few other cytokines, that allowed the people to lose the ability to respond well.

I mean, this is when he’s, remember, he was looking at the genes of his HLA genes. And he came up with a subset, which increased the likelihood that people would be susceptible to mycotoxins.

So it’s not just Lyme. But I think any chronic infection or chronic toxin exposure increases the likelihood that your body’s not going to dance as well when it’s exposed to mold.

There’s the genetics, and the amount of other stuff that are weighing on your immune system. So that’s what we talk about, as well. And we also talk about lots of different ways of dealing, of healing, because after you’ve had an exposure, and your brain or your body, and your nervous system, has developed patterns of response.

That’s one of the downsides of chronic illness, is that once you’ve blown up the balloon, once you’ve learned that pattern, you go back to that pattern easier. It’s just like addiction. If you get addicted to something, and you get it again, the desire is bigger than for people who are first exposed.
Well, unfortunately, the same thing happens when re-exposure can produce the symptoms faster and easier. That’s what makes life a little more, you have to be a little more careful as you go through, as you get more re exposures.

That’s another reason that some people are more sensitive. Because they’ve had a lot more exposures. And those are things that we learn about.

Michael Roesslein: So lots to learn there. Lots of tips, lots of suggestions, stuff on testing, some on recovery healing.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, yeah, lots of smart people. Yeah, I think that’s the most important thing is right now, I’ve been talking a lot, but I let the people talk, because these are some real experts.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, I looked at the list. It’s pretty impressive, the group.

It’s a lot of people that know a lot about these things, so …

Dr. Eric Gordon: That’s what we’re offering, just because we want people to think. I don’t know if you want me to throw it in, but you told me about a program that you were working on, that allows people to find the right therapies for them.

That’s what it’s all about, because I don’t help everybody. Far from it. I need lots of people who have different skill sets, and can hear things that I might miss. That’s what we want to give out to people, to realize that if you’re hitting the wall, and you’re not getting better with what you’re doing?

Michael Roesslein: Here’s some other tools.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Listen, ask for some other advice, see another, and get another perspective. I mean, and if your doctor gets real offended? Eh, put it like this. We all want to be your one, but the reality is, we’re not going to. We’re not going to have the answer for everybody. So hopefully, your doctor, even though I heard a little bit, they’ll stiffen up and go, “Okay, let me help you find some other advice, or another opinion,” because …

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, great.

Dr. Eric Gordon: We all don’t know everything. We’re all learning, all the time.

Michael Roesslein: That’s a really important attitude to have about it too. I’ve run into many in this field who think otherwise, so … [crosstalk 01:02:25] Now I’ve learned, that’s a red flag, because it’s literally impossible.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, and to be fair, some of the best minds that I know have that attitude, they they know it all. And they’re often my teachers. I honor them, because it’s that single minded focus that allows to, that can sometimes illuminate that path. But if you’re the patient, you have to remember, if that illumination doesn’t shine on you?

Find somebody else.

Michael Roesslein: Yeah, all right. Great, we’ll put the link down below. We’ll have a little banner, we’ll make it easy to find. Your website we’ll stick down there, too. If people want to go to your site, you guys have a great clinic there.

Several practitioners, really cool therapies and things down there, too, so …

Dr. Eric Gordon: We try, but again, there’s lots out there, and if we don’t have it …

We’ll do our best to help you find people in places that do. Because, like I say, everything works sometimes, which sounds kind of funny, but I really have seen that. I’ve seen people heal themselves in ways that I never imagined possible, so …

Michael Roesslein: I have now too, in the last few years.

Stuff, I would have totally foo-foo’d out the window before, I’ve like, “Huh, okay, then. That’s a thing.”

Dr. Eric Gordon: Yeah, exactly. We all have to be respected.

Michael Roesslein: And open-minded.

All right. Well, check out the summit, go learn a whole bunch more things, go check out their site.

Thank you so much, Dr. Gordon, this is always fun. Now I have, I took some notes. I have about four other subjects we’ll need to talk about it some day.

Dr. Eric Gordon: It’s a pleasure to talk to you.

Michael Roesslein: Because there was a lot of spirals we could have gone in there, that we reigned back in. So thank you for doing the summit, too. Thank you for putting that together. And we’ll talk again soon.

Dr. Eric Gordon: Thank you, Michael, so much. Thanks for this. It’s fun to make you think out loud.

Michael Roesslein: Yup, it is.

Biotoxin Issues, Complex Chronic Illness, Eric Gordon MD, Events, Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Video Blogs

Why Peptides Are a Big Deal

Peptides are tiny proteins made up of short chains of amino acids. They signal the cells in your body to perform in specific ways. While they may be extremely small, they’re really a BIG deal because they are responsible for all of the ways that your body and mind function.

With different peptides affecting different cells and functions, as therapies they can be highly tailored and targeted to treat a wide variety of health, anti-aging, and wellness conditions.

Peptides work synergistically and can be used with many other therapies to increase the effectiveness of antibiotics, antiviral and antiparasitic medications, IV nutrient therapies, hormone therapies, detoxification therapies, herbal remedies, and even other peptides.

At Gordon Medical we are seeing improvements using peptide therapies in a multitude of areas including:

• Immune dysregulation
• Autoimmunity
• Neurotoxicity
• Chronic inflammation
• Neurological impairment
• GI issues such as leaky gut
• Musculoskeletal pain
• Sleep disorders
• Pituitary and hypothalamic dysfunction
• Hormone deficiencies
• Mitochondrial dysfunction
• Coagulation Defects
• Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (MCAS)

To your health!

Drs. Eric Gordon and Nafysa Parpia

View a clip from Dr. Nafysa Parpia’s talk >> Biohacking Complex Chronic Illness

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View a clip of Dr. Eric Gordon’s talk >> Metabolomics, CDR, and Peptide Therapy

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Autoimmunity, Detox and Toxins, Eric Gordon MD, Immune Issues, Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (MCAS), Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Nafysa Parpia ND, Peptides, Uncategorized

Four Ways Mold Can Affect Your Health

Nafysa Parpia, ND with input from Jamie Kunkle, ND

The Mycotoxin and Chronic Illness Summit is over. There was so much important information, it can be hard to know where to start. Today we are giving an overview of the kinds of issues that mold can cause.

Some people are affected by mold illness in multiple different ways that need to be addressed. In every case, removal from the exposure is critical. Following are the ways in which mold exposure can manifest clinically: 

  • Mold Allergy – Immune system reaction to mold exposure. Usually, removal of the mold exposure source will also remove symptoms.
  • Mold Toxicity – Many molds generate mycotoxins and biotoxins that impact several of the body’s systems. Simply removing the source of the mold exposure may not be sufficient to remove symptoms, as the toxicity has already started the process of inflammation and can continue in the body even after exposure has been discontinued.
  • Mold Colonization – Beyond the initial exposure comes a possibility of colonization, where mold becomes a resident within the living system, colonizing the surfaces of the body in the sinuses, lungs, GI system, and/or on the skin. Colonization does not reach into the deeper tissues, but now becomes an ongoing exposure to allergens, mycotoxins, and biotoxins and will complicate the impact. Even if the environmental source has been removed, exposure continues inside the body. 
  • Mold Infection – In very rare cases, when a patient’s immune system has been damaged by chemotherapy, AIDS, or other immunosuppressive factors, mold may infect tissues deeper in the body than what is seen with colonization, causing severe acute infectious disease.

Symptoms of mold exposures are many and can mimic and exacerbate those from other complex chronic illnesses such as Tick-Borne illness and other chronic infections, environmental toxicity, cognitive decline and neurological disorders.

Common Mold Exposure Symptoms

  • Confusion, disorientation
  • Difficulty in word finding
  • Impaired concentration
  • Difficulty assimilating new information
  • Reduced task completion
  • Hypersensitivity to bright light
  • Night blindness
  • Tearing, redness of the eyes
  • Blurred vision
  • Chronic aching muscles
  • Joint pain, morning joint stiffness, pain in weight bearing joints
  • Nausea
  • Loss of appetite
  • Weight gain
  • Abdominal pain
  • Chronic sinus congestion
  • Chronic cough that mimics asthma
  • Shortness of breath
  • Ice-pick like pain, or shooting electrical pain
  • Nosebleeds
  • Metallic taste or other unusual taste
  • Vertigo, dizziness
  • Ringing in the ears (tinnitus)
  • Rage or inappropriate anger, mood swings
  • Panic attacks or anxiety, depression
  • Tingling, “needles and pins” sensations
  • Increased sensitivity to touch
  • Difficulty with sleep: getting to sleep difficulties, difficulty staying asleep
  • Excessive thirst, or frequent urination
  • Impotence
  • Irregular vaginal bleeding
  • Low body temperature
  • Hypoglycemia
  • Low blood pressure
  • Chronic yeast infections
  • Early onset of menopause

Every generation has accumulated but often unseen toxic burdens that can affect their health and wellness. We have survived and adapted under substantial duress and adversity as a species. However, there are limitations on an individual’s health and functioning as these burdens continue to accumulate. Unfortunately, few of these toxicants are routinely tested for or identified until disease develops, and a syndrome diagnosis (based on signs/symptoms) is established. You may receive a diagnosis of an autoimmune condition, chronic fatigue syndrome or even Lyme disease (among others).

Mold is one of the most commonly missed and/or understated toxins of our lifetime. Many of us have had, or are currently experiencing an exposure to mold and its toxins (mycotoxins), and it may not be obvious. Identification is often challenging, and exposure can harm your system for years without a clear diagnosis.

Mold exposure can cause inflammation and toxicity in the body which further complicates symptoms from existing chronic illnesses. For example – many of our patients who already have chronic Lyme disease, neurological issues, cognitive decline, fibromyalgia and ME/CFS (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) also have exposure to mold and the toxins that it creates – mycotoxins. In our clinical experience, treating the patient for mold exposure, and mycotoxins if it is also an issue, helps allow for their other multiple diagnoses to resolve faster.

It is said, if one works with Lyme, they will often find toxicity. The presence of such can be a predisposing factor or a relative result of the chronic illness itself. Many have developed increased sensitivities and poor detoxification responses after developing Lyme illness. Some were already exposed to the toxins themselves, suppressing and dysregulating their immune system response and allowing for a less favorable terrain and resilience to illness. Toxicity can be responsible for relapsing symptoms and can easily affect multiple different organ systems.

Other toxicants exist and should be evaluated for health/wellness and success of treatment are not to be understated either. This includes heavy metals, glyphosate, industrial, agricultural and water contaminants to name a few. These are also easily hidden from view as many are consumed or inhaled often with little immediate response.

We find diagnosis and appropriate treatment for mycotoxins and other environmental toxicants needs to precede and be concurrent with treatment for other chronic illnesses. Depending on each individual patient’s manifestation of symptoms and concurrent diagnoses, treatment may include oral, intravenous and physical therapies. Treatments are highly personalized to each patient.

There are many ways to support detoxification, some gentle and some more aggressive. The level of intervention is typically dependent on the overall toxic burden and constitution of the individual. This process is often gradual but has the potential to reestablish a more positive momentum of healing in the living system.

Allergies, Biotoxin Issues, Complex Chronic Illness, Jamie Kunkle ND, Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Nafysa Parpia ND

Underlying Factors of Chronic Fatigue – Dr. Jill Interviews Dr. Nafysa Parpia

Dr. Jill interviews Dr. Nafysa Parpia on underlying factors causing chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia.

They discuss what goes wrong with the body, how the cell danger response can become chronically activated, and some tips on treatments and testing that is useful in these patients.

Key Takeaways

Pre-tox (before detoxification)

  • Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (MCAS) often needs to be treated first to allow patients to tolerate other treatments.
  • Peptide therapies can be used to calm down the immune system.
  • Correcting sleep issues is needed before detoxification can start. Herbs, supplements, peptides, and certain antihistamines can be used.
  • Constipation needs to be addressed.
  • Any issues with the kidneys need to be looked at.
  • Herbs may be used as supportive therapies.

Detoxification

  • Detoxification needs to happen prior to and concurrent with treating infections. If the toxic load is high detox will cause negative reactions or “herxes.”
  • Each person has their own individual picture of factors causing symptoms, and will respond differently to treatment than other patients. Genetics are a factor there.
  • Treatment needs to be individually designed in response to that picture.
  • Arsenic and aluminum are being seen more, possibly due to the wildfires.
  • Medication is often required for the patient population seen at GMA.
  • Things patients can do themselves: coffee enemas for the liver, saunas or other means of sweating, dry brushing, castor oil packs, oil pulling, avoid buying foods and personal care products, home care products, etc. that contain chemical and toxins, eat organic.

Causes Behind Chronic Fatigue and Fibromyalgia

  • Pathogens are often involved: often parasites, viruses, tick-borne illnesses, mold, dental occult infections, sinus infections (fungal and MARCons).
  • With infections, you not only have to treat the infection but also restore the system.
  • Heavy metals
  • Infections and toxins hijack the system.
  • Hormone imbalances, especially sex hormones and thyroid.
  • GI imbalances and infections.

The Cell Danger Response

  • A monitoring system in the cell, modulated by the mitochondria, that looks for danger from pathogens, toxins, nutrient issues, emotional or physical stress, or other problems that can impact cell health.
  • In response to signals interpreted as dangerous, the cell sends out signals intended to create changes that protect the cell.
  • This response is happening all the time as the immune system watches for invaders. The problem is when the danger signal does not turn off, and the cell gets stuck in a defensive state.
  • The system gets stuck in this repeating loop of incomplete recovery and re-injury, and they’re unable to fully heal.
  • The CDR has three phases.
  • When CDR begins in enough cells you start to get symptoms like fatigue, brain fog, body aches and pains.
  • Part One involves the innate immune system. The neutrophils, the macrophages, natural killer cells, monocytes, the mast cells.
  • In Part One the mitochondria produces less ATP, exports the ATP outside the cell walls, and begins to depend on glucose for energy in anerobic respiration.
  • If someone gets stuck in Part One, you can see HPA axis issues, allergies, asthma, chronic infections.
  • Part Two is when we start to rebuild tissue damage through cell proliferation.
  • Mitochondria begin producing more ATP.
  • Someone stuck in Part Two may show proliferative disorders, cancers, hypertension, different heart diseases.
  • In Part Three the body is restoring intercellular communication.
  • Hormones and neurotransmitters are important in Part Three.
  • When stuck, we’re going to see illnesses like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and fibromyalgia, autism spectrum disorder, PTSD, anxiety, depression.

Restoration

  • Chronic illness is traumatic
  • Regenerative treatments help restore balance

Transcript

This has been edited slightly for clarity and ease of reading.

Jill Carnahan (JC): Hello everybody! You’re here this afternoon with us and Dr. Nafysa, and I am so excited today about today’s topic.  I know a lot of you struggle with chronic fatigue or fibromyalgia. We’re going to do a really deep dive into some of the mechanisms behind that. You’re going to find some really fascinating information from Dr. Nafysa today that her practice, Gordon Medical Associates deals with and was actually instrumental in some of the research behind.  

So, stay tuned for that! Before we start, and before I give her a formal introduction, I want to just tell you a little bit of housekeeping. If you don’t already know, you can find all of these videos on my YouTube channel. Just go to YouTube and find my name, Jill Carnahan, and you can find all the 50 plus interviews there for free. I’d love if you subscribe or leave feedback there, or share those videos if you find them helpful. You can also re-watch them here on Facebook and on the podcast, so just all things medical here. If you do want information about blogs, information about Lyme disease, co-infections, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, other topics, you can find that on my website at jillcarnahan.com, and if we do mention any products or services, you can find those at drjillhealth.com.

So, Dr. Nafysa, I would love to formally introduce you, and I’m so glad you’re here today.  Dr Parpia has spent the last decade treating patients with complex chronic illness from all over the United States and the world. Her specialization is patients with tick-borne illness, environmentally acquired illness, mold and mycotoxin illness, autoimmunity, fibromyalgia, and chronic fatigue. Sounds real familiar! External factors to the body, such as environmental toxic burden, pathogens, diet, and lifestyle affect the balance of internal factors (and we’ll talk a little bit about that today); over or under expression of immunity, infection susceptibility, epigenetic expression, and cellular and biochemical function, mood and the microbiome.

All of these things are some of what we’re going to talk about that affect our mitochondria, which expresses fatigue, and some of these other things. Each of these aspects is different for every patient we see. Investigating to discover and remove the underlying cause while providing symptom relief, she uses cutting edge lab testing and deep intuition applied to the full range of scientific data to unravel the mystery of each patient. She then creates a carefully crafted treatment plan, highly personalized and healing.

She uses a synergistic blend of regenerative medicine, oral and IV micronutrient therapies, peptides, botanical medicine, pharmaceuticals, injection therapies, functional nutrition, and lifestyle counseling. She sees patients at Gordon Medical in the San Francisco bay area, and previously worked in Dr Klinghart’s clinic. She’s also, as I am, on the ISEAI (International Society of Environmentally Acquired Illness) board, and is scientific medical advisor for the Neurohacker Collective.

Absolute honor and delight to have you, Dr Nafysa! Thank you so much for joining me today.

Nafysa Parpia (NP): Thank you, Dr. Jill for having me. Such an honor to be here.

JC: Yes. So, we met through the ISEAI board, but I know this about the work you’ve done and it’s just, like I said, it’s an honor. It’s so parallel when I read your bio, you know, we’re all doing our things in our corners of the world trying to solve the mysteries of these chronic illnesses.

Before we dive into chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, I’d love to hear just a little bit, and I know our listeners would, about your story and, kind of how you got into medicine and healing. Tell us just a little bit about your journey into this field.

NP: I always knew that I wanted to help people in their healing. I began as a yoga instructor, and the more I taught yoga, the more I realized I wanted to go deeper with people, particularly in illness and in health, and restoring illness into health. And so, I went to Bastyr and I studied naturopathic medicine there.

It wasn’t until I was in the offices of Dr. Dietrich Klinghart, when I graduated, and I saw people who were very, very, very sick, that was when my heart just went out to these patients. I could see that they were suffering, you know, but they weren’t treated at other clinics, before going to his clinic, with very much respect. They were told this is all in their head, or they’re just aging, and there was minimal treatment or minimal diagnosis offered to them. I could just feel the depth of their illness, and it was painful to see the judgments that were put upon them. So, I wanted to help, in helping create treatment and protocols and really dive deep with these people and help them out of the suffering that they were having a hard time coming out of. Yeah, gosh, I love that, because most of us who go into medicine in some form, it’s this healer within us that really does want to just help and understand.

And I think especially those of us who end up with environmental toxicity, mold, pathogens, chronic illness. No one in their right mind would choose this unless they were a healer, right?

JC: Exactly!  It is definitely the hardest, most complex form of medicine. I’m sure you agree.  I love it! I know you do too. Like, I love the complexity.  I always say the more complex the better. But it’s really, really difficult sometimes and these are not, these are the cases that the most conventional doctors don’t want to see, sadly, so it’s good that you and I, you know, are welcoming them to our practice. So, you’ve had such a great experience with some amazing medical partners. You were with Dr. Klinghart originally. Was that right after you graduated?

NP: Yeah, right after I graduated.

JC: Excellent, fantastic! You probably got a little bit of good information on Lyme and co-infections and all of that there, and he’s so good at some of the environmental toxicity and the stuff that’s on the cutting edge. I always feel like the Europeans are way ahead of us, and because he’s originally from Europe I love his perspective. He’s not jaded like many, right?

NP: Exactly! So, it was really wonderful. That’s where I first learned, right after school, really how to work with this population, about the tick-borne illnesses and mold and detoxification therapies. And from there I really made it my own.

JC: Yeah! Was there anything in particular with that experience that you learned as far as how to approach a chronic infection or…  Well, first of all we’re talking about chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia. So, say you had a patient with fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, from your early days was there anything that sticks in your mind about lessons that you learned about how to approach them?

NP: Absolutely! So, the first was to detoxify them first. To find out what the toxic burden is. So, testing through different labs, looking at different heavy metals or different chemicals, glyphosate, different pesticides and understanding what that burden is.

Because if we detoxify them first, then then we can get the immune system to be more modified. We can we can get it to be more able to handle the killing of infections.

JC: What a great pearl! And for those of you listening, you’ve probably been to doctors who are like, “Oh, let’s start these antibiotics.” But what you’re saying, which I’ve seen that as well, it’s like the body, if its toxic load, if its bucket is full, and that’s usually the ones that are coming to see us because some of that pain and fibromyalgia types of stuff. Again, we’ll go deep into why that happens and some of the reasons behind it is from the toxic burden in the tissues, right? So, if you take a person like that, they have infections that need treating but you throw these even herbal antibiotics, but for sure medications, it’s too much for their system to handle, isn’t it?

NP: Right. They’ll actually backfire. A lot of times they’ve got this hyperactivity in the immune system. On one hand they’ve got a hyperactive immune system and on another hand of the immune system it’s it it’s too weak to even mount an appropriate immune response. So many times, if we try to treat them with the antibiotics, herbal or pharmaceutical, first they’ll be sensitive to those treatments. So, we have to decrease the toxic load and get the mast cells in order first, and then like…

JC: I love that order, because it’s so important, I’ve noticed that with my own practice as well, where again, if there’s infection and toxins and mast cell activation, which is common, and chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia, you really can’t go to treatment until you start with getting that mast cell calmed down and the detoxification at least under control.

What are some of the things when they first come in like that, would you, what kind of testing panels would you do for the initial assessment?

NP: So, I like to do the Great Plains panel where I’m going to look at their glyphosate, mycotoxins. Most of my patients do have a high mycotoxin load and also on their tox panel while I’m looking at a lot of chemicals. I’ll also do the Doctor’s Data heavy metal provocation, but I’m also going to look at metals unprovoked first. Just from Labcorp, just urinate in a cup or to have their blood taken at Labcorp looking for the ones that Labcorp will look at, like mercury, lead, aluminum, arsenic. By the way, I’m seeing a lot of arsenic.

JC: Yes!

NP: In people’s blood, and I think that’s from the fires. It’s not something I saw in previous years. It’s all of a sudden, this year, whoa lots of arsenic!

JC: I bet you’re right. I suspect with the fires there’s definitely a lot of metals that were released and I’m seeing more and more aluminum in all of my patients.

NP: Yes! Which I didn’t see.

JC: And I’m like where else is it coming from because we know like vaccinations over time can be a source, aluminum cookware, um, what are some other sources of aluminum that you think of when you see aluminum? Is there anything else that you think of?

NP: You know, I recently, I had a drummer. I have a drummer in my practice and he drummed bare foot and there was aluminum on the pedal.

JC: Wow!

NP: And aluminum was through the roof. I just measured it so…

JC: Wow, that’s so that’s so fascinating! Isn’t it funny when you find one of those, where you’re like, oh I think this is from this?  And arsenic too. I think it’s more in the rain water, but probably from the fires, and then the rain and the soils and yeah, so, wow! Very good! One thing we kind of glossed over, we talked about how you got into this medicine, but is there anything else that interests you about this population? I mean, we talked a little bit about the helping, the healer within you, but because again this is a population that is very complex. But you must love to solve problems. Is that one of your…

NP: I love to solve problems. I love to solve human problems.

JC: Yes! Yeah, exactly, right?

NP: I’m not an engineer, you know, but the human problems. But it is very much a mystery. It’s very much a puzzle and each person is their own mystery. So, while I run the same labs for everybody, I’m going to find different pieces, and one person will react very differently than another to treatment, or from the same exposure.  A lot of that has to do with the genes.

So, speaking of labs, I like to use the IntellxxDNA.  I found that they really looked at how the snips will interact with one another, as opposed to just here’s a snip, or there’s a snip. They’ll look at them together, and they really culled the research to look at what diseases are related to which genes that are acting in symphony with one another.  So, it’s an expensive test…

JC: This is great! I just started doing this. I have a couple patients pending. I did it on myself and it’s pending, and I’ve got Sharon coming on, so stay tuned for the show because I’m so excited because we’ll have her talk about that. She’s the expert, the medical director of IntellxxDNA. Yeah, I love that you’re using that, because I’ve been, so many genetic tests out there aren’t there yet.

NP: Yeah, I found that this one is the most informative.

JC: I agree! So, say you have someone, and again, we’re going to get to fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue in a moment, and the Cell Danger Response, which I do want you to talk about. But before we go there, say you do have someone with arsenic or metals, or say they have a little bit of mast cell activation, they have chronic pain and chronic infection and toxic burden and all these things. If you do find metals are you going to do that early on, detoxification, are you going to do maybe some treatment? Where would you order that in in your treatment plan?

NP: I think it depends on the person, but most of my patients I have to treat mast cell activation syndrome first. Usually, they come to me with that. They don’t even know they have it, so I just want to calm down the immune system. That’s the hyperactivity that I want to calm down.

I’ll use peptide therapies very often with that. I like to use thymus and Beta-4 to help calm down the immune system. I’ll use BPC-157 as well to help with decreasing inflammation. I’ll give them sleep peptides. Often, they need to sleep before they’re even ready to detox. Sometimes they’re constipated, so I need to deal with the constipation before they’re ready to detox, or else they’ll just be a backlog of toxicants that aren’t exiting the system. Sometimes they have issues with their kidneys so we have to work with that.  

Often with these patients I’m calming down their immune system while I’m working with other systems that aren’t quite ready for detox.  I’m doing like a pre-tox, I’m giving herbs to support, right, and then I’ll re-test some labs. See where they’re at. And also see where they’re at with the way they’re feeling. And then we’ll begin chelation therapy.

 JC: That’s tremendous and I always admire some of my best learnings are from my naturopathic friends because I feel like you guys have such a great training in some of those detox, what’s the name of it from naturopathic medicine of the detox pathways?

NP: The munterries?

JC: Yeah, I like that term because I’ve learned that over time, but traditional allopathic medicine, we’re not taught about this. Which is why most doctors, unless they go get extra education, they don’t even know. I feel like you guys have a lot to teach us in this way. Tremendous! What other things would you do? Some of the homeopathic remedies or drainage remedies or things? What about non-herbal, non-homeopathics, maybe epsom salt baths or alkaline water? Do you have any sort of just environmental or lifestyle things that are good for detox that you like for most of your patients?

NP: Yeah, most of them actually do well with coffee enemas, as strange as that sounds. Actually, it helps their liver to continue detoxifying. Saunas I think are really important, or at least getting the sweat going, because the skin is the largest organ of detoxification. And of course, making sure that they’re not using products that have chemicals and toxins in them, and they’re eating organic as much as they possibly can.

JC: Fantastic! Yeah, and do you do castor oil packs or a dry brush or some of those?

 NP: Yes! Yes, castor oil packs, dry brushing, oil pulling. Yeah, we use a combination of very classic naturopathic techniques along with this patient population, I have to use a lot of medications.

JC: Yes. Definitely, especially with MCAS you really sometimes need to layer four, five, six, things.

NP: Yeah! It turns out, when I went to naturopathic school these were the treatments that were taught to us, and they’re wonderful for the population that’s not extremely sick, and for the people that are extremely sick, they’re excellent, supportive, and I consider them foundational, but then I have to go into stronger…

JC: Right, right. I love it though, because we’re pulling from both worlds, because I like to learn from the homeopathic, naturopathic world, but we still need medications of course, on both ends, so great. So, we talked about your interest, and so let’s go, let’s dive into what’s behind these illnesses, because there’s so many. I’ll just let you talk a little bit about what’s behind, and then after that we can go into the Cell Danger (Response).  I definitely want to talk about that. So, behind these illnesses, what was so great is the bio that I read for you, you literally listed what’s behind these illnesses in your bio.  I love that, but talk a little bit about what those are, so someone who has fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, who is listening, what might be some of the causes behind that?

NP: In classic fibromyalgia they say there’s no cause, right, and then you get them working and they’re supposed to be better. Most of my patients are not like that. If I give them Lyrica it’s not going to really help. Maybe a little bit for a couple weeks, and then nothing.  So usually, I’m looking for pathogens, often parasites, viruses, tick-borne illnesses, mold, dental occult infections.

JC: That’s very common, isn’t it?

NP: Right, sinus infections, which I think is overlooked a lot. I bet you’re thinking the same thing about the sinus. It’s so close to the brain, and I’m finding a lot of funguses or MARCons in people’s sinuses, and once I treat that their brain fog begins to resolve, because I think of the inflammatory cytokines, the bugs that are in the sinuses…

JC: I find this to be one of the biggest missing pieces of people who’ve been to mold treatment other places.  I’m like, did anyone treat your sinuses? Like, no! This is a really big deal.

NP: I totally agree!  I’ll treat the sinuses the same way I treat the gut, actually, by killing the infections, restoring the whole thing.

JC: What do you like, let’s pause there real quick, because what do you like to use? I mean I have some herbal favorites and some prescription favorites, but what are some of your preferred ways to treat the sinuses? Do you do irrigation, do you do sprays, do you compound, do you do herbs?

NP: I do compounding very often. I’m going to start with Argentyn silver. I found that if people do this, if they nebulize it, not just spray it, but they atomize it so it really goes up high, then I’ve seen that really reduce brain fog. If they do this, and this is a tall order, like four or five times a day for two weeks. It’s changed people’s lives, people who are not chronically ill but that have brain fog, that has changed their life just doing that.

JC: And just plain silver or with EDTA, or would you use both?

NP: I start with silver, and then I also have them do at night a nasal probiotic flush, and then also I’ll have them put coconut oil in their nostrils because it’s hard to kill infections in the sinuses when they’re dry. They’ll do that for two weeks, and then I’ll move into using Chelating PX, which is EDT to bust up the biofilm.  And then if they have a fungus, I might use amphotericin or BEG spray if there’s MARCons, so whatever antibiotic they need.  I’ll use that, we’ll be atomizing that.

JC:  that was tremendous and I love a couple things you mentioned. First of all, that you start with silver without EDTA, because I think sometimes that biofilm busting is way too much. They get headaches or they get really sick because all of a sudden, it’s a dumping of the dead material that’s being… I think of the biofilms, if you’re listening, as pond scum. It’s like this kind of gross covering that keeps everything hidden from the antibiotics or the silver. So you need to bust it up to clear it out, but if you bust it up too much too quickly the system gets overwhelmed and the mast cells get angry too, right?

NP: They sure do! I think of it as a gentle way in before I, in fact that’s the way how I’ll treat most people. We’ll start and I’ll start gently and ramp them up.

JC:  I’ll just remember this, and the other thing mentioned, the dryness, because most of us aren’t flying a lot nowadays, but it’s just flying in an airplane, it’s so dry! That’s why people tend to get more sick, or used to. Again, now things are just very different. Still toxic, because they spray all these chemicals, but the dryness of the air. And here I am in Colorado, which is really dry, that really makes a difference, the moisture.  I love that you recommended… now are you having people just put it just in their nostrils a little bit?

NP: Yeah, just have them take a Q-tip and just put it in.

JC: Instead of Vaseline, which is petroleum-based, right?

NP: Right, exactly.

JC: Oh, that’s a great pearl. So, we talked about nasal and then I interrupted. What else would be the underlying factors in the chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia?

NP: So definitely heavy metals, which we already talked about. I think of this, it’s a whole soup, so it’s not salad like where’s the tomato, here’s a piece of celery, it’s the whole thing together in one soup.

So, metals, usually there’s a high viral load, I’ll measure people’s nagalase. I love the Infectolabs test, by the way, because now we can use T cells to look at if the infection is active right now or no, as opposed to looking antibodies where we have to kind of guess, right?  I’ll use that test to see if there’s a high viral load. If there’s mold, I like to look at the mold IgG, at allergens as well as mycotoxins. So, I’ll look at that on Labcorp.

Basically, I’m hunting for different infections and different toxins because those are the two things that I think hijacked the system. Of course, I’m looking at their hormones, their sex hormone panel and their thyroid, because those are areas that are going to be affected, as well, causing fatigue.

JC: Excellent! So, pathogens, toxins, infections, and hormones and oh this is great!

NP:  And the gut, of course the gut.

JC: Yes, and you always do like stool and organic acids, or how do you like to assess the gut?

NP: Yeah, I like the GI Map Test. I find it to be the most sensitive so I look there, and most of my patients also have SIBO, which I generally like to treat first.

I like the Trio Smart Test because you’re looking at hydrogen sulfide SIBO, and no other test has done that before. So that that will give us a chance to find SIBO in ways we haven’t been able to before.

JC: Yes, now the key is, then what do we do with hydrogen SIBO? I’ve read a little bit about some of the pearls for treatment. But if you do find hydrogen sulfide is there any particular things you do differently with treatments or herbs?

NP: You know for sure I’m having them decrease sulfur in their diet. But I’m using the same treatment as I would for regular SIBO, which is the Xifaxan, Flagyl, the bismuth to bust up the biofilm, goldenseal to prevent yeast.

JC: Yes, oh fantastic! Sounds so similar and so important, because again that gut…

I love that you mentioned two things that I think are so critical, that you really can’t get past, and that’s sleep and constipation. So, if you have someone coming in that has insomnia or constipation, no matter what kind of protocol you put them on, if they’re not sleeping and they’re not pooping, you’re not gonna get very far, right?

NP: No, no, no exactly!

JC: What do you feel for sleep, because a lot of these patients have sleep issues, and it’s related to everything else we talked about. Any tips or tricks that you have for helping patients sleep?

NP:  I have an ayurvedic sleep tea which I really like. There’s cardamom in it. Cardamom helps people stay asleep. There’s ashwagandha and shatavari in it, that can help people. Now there’s some people who that doesn’t help, or you know the regular things, like valerian or GABA or L-theanine, that’s not helping them. I’ll go to peptides for them. I like Epitalon for sleep, or delta-inducing sleep peptide. Those really, really help people and it makes me not have to use, and I’d like to not use benzos for their sleep, right? I found that peptides can be a way around having to use benzos for those people who just can’t sleep no matter what herb I give them or no matter what sleep hygiene techniques we give.

JC: This could be tricky in the tick-borne infections. They complain to that too, and the activation of the immune system, so I find that sleep issues for some people is really hard to hack. But like you said, between peptides and herbs and then there was some, oh I was thinking antihistamines can be, like hydroxyzine and those can be really helpful.

NP:  Yeah, because often actually I give ketotifen for mast cell activation syndrome and it really helps them to fall asleep. There’s the odd person, I found in my practice, that makes them groggy in the morning. Not too often, but sometimes I can’t give them ketotifen.

JC: Great tips! So, let’s talk about this Cell Danger Response (CDR), because I know Gordon Medical center was where, you had told me right before we got on live, that you guys had actually done some of the research with Dr. Naviaux (Bob Naviaux, PhD). So, tell us first what is it, and then you can just dive in, I can ask some questions, but I definitely want to talk about this.

If you haven’t heard about the Cell Danger Response, this is groundbreaking!

NP: So, at Gordon Medical we provided the patients that Dr. Naviaux did research on. This was right before I joined Gordon Medical. Gordon Medical and Dr. Naviaux were involved in in the research together then, and wrote the paper on this, and it is groundbreaking.

Metabolic features of chronic fatigue syndrome: Robert K. Naviaux, Jane C. Naviaux, Kefeng Li, A. Taylor Bright, William A. Alaynick, Lin Wang, Asha Baxter, Neil Nathan, Wayne Anderson, Eric Gordon, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Sep 2016, 113 (37) E5472-E5480; DOI: 10.1073/pnas.1607571113

So, the Cell Danger Response, it’s modulated by mitochondria, which is the energy producing part of the cell, and it’s also sensing when the cell’s not getting the nutrients it should be getting. So that means that the cell’s in danger. It’s signaling the immune system to take action. That there is danger. It can happen when there’s a virus in there, or a toxin that ties up nutrients, and the mitochondria will then send a signal to other cells. But that signal is that it starts to send ATP outside of the cell. So actually, around the cell membrane instead of inside the cell.

 The important thing to remember is that it’s not an on and off signal. There’s a little bit of the signaling every day to help your body pay attention to when there is an invader; a pathogen or a toxin or stress, whether that’s emotional or physical stress. So, it doesn’t have to be a disease. It’s really actually happening constantly as a normal defense mechanism, but when the signal persists, that’s when illness occurs. There’s a healing response that’s stuck in this loop and it just can’t stop. Mast cells are constantly activated, the immune system is constantly activated, so it’s like trying to understand, where do I cut that loop, how do I stop the cell danger response from happening?

Speaking of chronic fatigue, Dr. Naviaux, and Gordon Medical, the research occurred on Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, itself.

JC: Yeah, so yeah, associated. I mean he’s associated Cell Danger Response with Lyme disease, with autism, with chronic fatigue, yeah, so it’s been really wide. Like it’s one of the things that I know you and I, we can see it unifies a lot of these complex chronic illnesses that we see. Almost all of them, actually.

NP: Exactly! Yeah, they’re stuck in this repeating loop of incomplete recovery and re-injury, and they’re unable to fully heal.

JC: Talk a little about that, because there’s the Cell Danger Response, with phase one, two, and three, and each of those, if it gets stuck, there’s different sets of illnesses and things. You want to talk a little bit about some of those, and the differences between them?

NP: Sure! Part One involves the innate immune system. The neutrophils, the macrophages, natural killer cells, monocytes, the mast cells. These cells come out, the mast cells come to prime the immune system and then the other cells will come out to begin the killing, and may actually do the killing. But the infected cells, at this point they stop making normal amounts of ATP, and this is when they start to export the ATP to the cell membrane outside the cell. That’s the danger signal, usually signaling the rest of the body cells, “Hey there’s a danger here, there’s a toxin, there’s a bug that’s activating the innate immune system.”

So, we see, if it happens in a lot of cells, that’s when we start to see the sick behavior: fatigue, brain fog, body aches and pains. If it only happens a little bit, we’re just going to get a stuffy nose. But at this point they’re depending on glucose for energy instead of ATP, because the mitochondria are now browning out. So, it’s anaerobic respiration. They’re producing little energy, so we’ll see illnesses here. If we’re stuck here, we’ll see HPA axis issues, allergies, asthma, chronic infections which are often underneath chronic fatigue syndrome and the fibromyalgia that I see. So, it can be stuck here and in part two and part three which I’ll talk about in a minute.

So, it can be stuck in different parts and all different systems of the body.

Part Two is when we start to rebuild tissue damage, and that’s cell proliferation. The mitochondria start to go back to producing more ATP, but it’s still anaerobic. We’re not burning fat still.  We’re still burning energy from glucose, but there’s less of an inflammatory signal, so here it’s more proliferative disorders, cancers, hypertension, different heart diseases.

Then there’s Part Three, where we’re restoring intercellular communication. The cells learn how to function as a part of the whole, so a lot of hormones are important here. Neurotransmitters are important here. So here we’re going to see illnesses like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and fibromyalgia, autism spectrum disorder, PTSD, anxiety, depression.

JC: I love it, because you really cover all of medicine like this. This is such an underlying cellular, like, we’re talking about at the cell level. One of the things that goes wrong, which is why when Dr. Naviaux really has presented his data, all of us were just like, wow! I remember two years ago, at ISEAI, when he presented, and you involved a little bit in the research. So maybe you knew some of the back story, but for me, and most of us, who hadn’t heard a lot of the research, it was literally jaw-dropping! Oh my goodness, this is amazing! Because it just puts everything together.

I’m gonna try to, I may not be exactly scientifically accurate. But for those of you who are listening, and you’re not super scientific, I’m going to try to explain in really simple terms what’s happening. You have a cell, and when the cell spills its contents, it’s broken, right? It like, spills out, then the contents get outside. That’s what’s triggering this, is outside the cell, it’s like, we call it like damage associated receptors. So basically, the damage to the cell, the contents of the cell got exploded or damaged or leaky, and then the outside is getting the signal that, oh, there’s cell contents outside the cell. This is not good.

I think of it real simplistically as you’ve spilled contents of a cell that was damaged, and outside the cell there was a signal. Because your body knows, it’s very smart, it’s like this should not be outside the cell. It should be inside the cell, and that’s the ATP.  The ATP as a cellular currency should be in the cell making energy for the cell. If it gets outside the cell this is the Cell Danger Response, and again, super simplified, probably not completely scientifically accurate. But for those of you listening to understand, it’s just the spilled contents. The cell’s broken, it’s damaged, and because this damage is telling the body, something is dreadfully wrong. You’ve got to mop up this mess you’ve spilled on the floor.

That’s kind of how I think of it in a simplistic way.

NP: Exactly that.

JC: So then, what do we do? Again, this is a cellular mechanism. There have been drugs studied to stop this that are highly effective. Unfortunately, they’re not available, right?

NP: Suramin.

So interesting. I think in medicine, we’re so good with A goes to B. Heart attack, broken bone, bullet wound, medicine knows what to do. But Dr. Naviaux calls what we’re talking about the black box of healing, the complex chronic illness. So, this is where it becomes highly personalized. When we look at the genes, we look for the toxins, we look, we’re looking for what is causing the most irritation in the system. For my patients, all of these things we just talked about, but usually it’s the immune system that’s the loudest first, and the mast cells. So back to that! Treating that.

JC: Back to where we started, which is starting with calming the mast cells, supporting immune system, clearing infections, treating heavy metals, toxicity, and then going down the road.

One question I just thought of as we’re talking, on fibromyalgia. I have heard some of the theories around having lactic acidosis, which is basically in the tissues you have a more acidic environment which can cause pain. Again, that can come from everything, it’s not a new theory, it’s nothing that’s different from what we’re already talking about. But have you found any sort of alkalinization therapies helpful? Like say, mineral water, Alka Seltzer Gold, some of those things, or even alkaline diets? Have you done anything along those lines?

NP: Absolutely! Alkaline diets I think really help, or intermittent fasting. For sure the detoxification is going to help.

JC: Yes, excellent! So, what else would we look at? Let’s go back to talk about chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia just slightly separately, because they are very similar in mechanism but we might treat them slightly differently.

Let’s start with fatigue, because fatigue is, most people who are sick they have some sort of fatigue.  They may not qualify for chronic fatigue (syndrome). Most of them do but even if they don’t, they’d usually have, and it usually is associated with brain fog. It’s so funny, because those of us in medicine, brain fog isn’t really defined, right, but every patient that we ever talk to, if we say brain fog, they know what we mean. So, we use that term a lot. How would you define brain fog, or what would people be complaining of when they come to you with that?

NP: Most of my patients have brain fog, actually. In tick-borne illness, I find the brain fog is actually more tied to pain than in people who have mostly just viral issues. But in both populations, the brain fog will manifest pretty similarly, or be experienced similarly. So, I just went into a room, and I forgot what I went there for. I went to the grocery store and I picked up peas, but I meant to get potatoes, or things like that. Or I just can’t think straight, a lot of them say I think I’m losing my mind. I actually find it’s more in the tick-borne illness patients that it’s that extreme, who say I think I’m going crazy.

But for women a lot of times, if they’re not sick, we can just fix the hormones. That’ll help them, right? But for these patients, if we fix the hormones, they’re still going to feel like they have brain fog. So that’s another sign that there’s something else going on.

JC: I love that, because I remember 15-20 years ago, when I started in functional medicine, I have a menopause patient or a patient with hypothyroid, and it’d be very simple, straightforward. We replace the hormones or balance their hormones or give them thyroid, and they feel better. And I don’t know when I’ve seen one of those kinds of patients lately, because there’s so many layers. If only it were that simple! Certainly, there are people who that’s all it needs is just a little tweaking, but I find that to be kind of a superficial level.

Not superficial, it’s very, very important, but it’s superficial enough that what we’re talking about here is usually way deeper causes. So, just doing that alone, unfortunately nowadays, at least for my practice, doesn’t usually 100% turn them around, right?

NP:  No, definitely not! I wish it would, and they wish it too. They say okay, now look, the labs say that my progesterone and my estrogen are back into balance, but I still feel the same. Still so terrible! Then I say, but you know that’s just a foundation for you? Now at least we have this foundation set, now we have to really get into the nitty-gritty of working on the immune system and working on bringing out the insults.

But what I also find is that once I can take, we can take the knife out, like the bugs, the toxins out, but  the symptoms still persist.

JC: It’s almost like a memory, right?  Even though you’ve cleaned up the terrain, the body still remembers and can kind of stay… What do you do with that? I’ve seen, we may even go into this, but I feel like emotional trauma, emotional health, some of these limbic system things are so critical. Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on that, and what would you do?

NP: I think that that’s really a big piece. That’s when a lot of times I might start to use regenerative medicine, actually exosomes or biological allografts. Those I found can really help. NAD IV can help a lot at that point as well. That’s looking at the biochemical piece, but you just talked about, and what I would consider such an important piece, which is the healing piece. These people have normally experienced a lot of trauma in their lives. That’s what I find.

Just like these illnesses have hijacked the different systems of their body, they’ve also had had people in their lives do what I would call hijacking their lives in some way. So much trauma, and so that that piece is really, really important.

I like to give them craniosacral therapy, and we have some amazing healers that we work with as well. So, I send them to the healers for that kind of work. Acupuncture…

JC:  I love that you’re mentioning that, because I feel the same and those aren’t my areas of expertise but I know people who do it. So whether it’s somatic based trauma therapies, whether there’s programs like DNRS program, Safe and Sound by Porges, or there’s a bunch of programs out there that are really helpful. Love craniosacral, love acupuncture, and naturopathy, we have some of the traditional emotional remedies, those types of things, with homeopathic remedies and things. Again, not my area of expertise, but those, all together can be really profound at that layer.

Because what happens with these illnesses, even if you’re healthy, you have a good family support system, the body subconsciously sees this mold or Lyme as a trauma, and so even if you’re super healthy and you weren’t abused as a child, it’s still a trauma. And then the medical system, I think, sadly, most of the time further traumatizes the patients.

NP: I agree, yeah, they really do. Because they haven’t been accepted.

JC: Yeah, they’ve been told they’re crazy, or go take this med for your mind, or it’s not… I mean, you might manifest as insomnia or bipolar or depression, anxiety, but these are not primarily psychological issues.

NP: Exactly, yeah, they’re secondary to the issue at hand, which is usually the infection or toxin.

JC: Yeah, I wonder nowadays if all mental illness isn’t really gut, microbiome, Cell Danger Response. I don’t know if there’s any pure psychological disorders anymore, because I can always find a root cause that’s actually physiological, right?

NP: Exactly, and then once it takes some time to turn these people around, but once they’re turned around, I see big shifts in their psychology…

JC: and moods and relationships, and it’s amazing, right? The whole dynamic to shift, so yeah, it’s amazing.

Well, let’s shift in our last couple minutes, because we’ve really covered a lot of ground. We talked a little about the limbic and some of these things, but what about just whether it’s social support, isolation, especially with COVID and the pandemic and all that we’ve experienced? What are some kind of mental health tips or social tips or things that you might encourage your patients to do, just to have a support system? Or anything in that realm that you would think about, or encourage them, or nature walks or things like that?

 NP: Yeah, there’s a lot of support groups out there. Sometimes I’ve heard patients tell me that, oh, that just really drags me into my diagnosis more. That’s just not what I want. And other people say, oh, I needed to meet more people just like myself. So, I think that everybody who’s interested should try to experience it and see if it’s for them or not. Some people it’s great, some people they don’t want that. Those I think are people who are more solitary people, and for them, for everybody, nature walks. I find grounding really helps. Just putting their feet in the sand, feeling the sunshine on them.

JC:  I love that! You’re in the bay area, did you say? You don’t always get sunshine.

NP: It can be cool down here.

JC: I love the earthing and grounding, and then, do you guys recommend pulsed electromagnetic fields (PEMF) in your clinic at all?

 NP: Yes and no. So, I’ve seen it blow up a lot of our patients. You know, they’re just not quite ready for it, so more towards the end of treatment I’ve seen it work really well.

JC: And with that NAD IV and exosomes and stuff, so the powerhouse is that. For me personally, at this level now, I love it, but I think it would have blown me out of the water five years ago. That makes sense.

Let’s see, I was thinking I wanted to go back to one other thing you mentioned, coffee enemas. I went to Switzerland for a detox, like the last two years, before, when we could travel. One thing that was there, that they had these coffee enema kits that were just so amazingly easy to use. It’s a Swiss mountain clinic. Used to be Paracelsus. So, we’ve actually imported those and I have them at the clinic. I want to be sure and let the listeners know if you want an easy way. Because I agree with you, the coffee enemas can be so profound, and you can get online kits and setups. Do you have those at your clinic that you sell or recommend at all?

NP: We don’t but, Ben Greenfield wrote a really good article, so I just send people that website. I’d love to hear about the winner.

JC: Perfect! I’ll include a link for the Coffee Enema Kit down here. I just want to mention it because it’s such a unique thing that we have at our clinic and we can ship to you anywhere in the U.S. We actually import them from Europe because they’re not made in the U.S. It’s a really simple setup with a bottle that’s bpa-free, and tubing and literally an instant, really, really clean low roasted green coffee with charcoal in it. It’s a German formula. It’s the cleanest thing I’ve ever found, and you just put it in the bottle, warm tap water, shake it up, and you’re done. So super easy to use. I’ll include a link in case anyone’s interested because it’s just one of those things where I found being in Switzerland, I’m like, we need this in the U.S. When I tried to figure out who had them, no one had them.

So last bit here. Where can people find you, where can people find more about you, are you accepting new patients? Tell us a little bit more about it.

NP: Yes, I’m accepting new patients. You can go to gordonmedical.com or just look up Gordon Medical Associates and all the information is over there. People come from all over the country particularly for the IV therapies actually. It used to be, when you were talking about socialization, it used to be that we had a big IV suite, and people would sit there and socialize. It would be their hangout time with people just like them, and they loved it! Now we can’t we can’t do it that way with COVID. People have their own private room, and we take all the precautions that we need to in order to make sure that it’s safe in there. But you won’t have company in there anymore…

JC:  But you still do it, and I have patients who have been there. So, again, nothing but good reviews and it’s just been neat to share a few patients once a while that have been back in here, so, I can attest to that. Just the great care. Now the other thing you mentioned. Before you go, you’re doing a summit. Tell us about what’s coming up with the summit.

NP: Yeah, so Dr. Gordon and I are going to be hosting a Mycotoxin and Chronic Illness Summit (July 12-18, 2021) through DrSummits. I’m very excited about it and hopefully you’ll be participating.

JC: I would love to!

NP: It’s going to be in June, okay, so we’re just starting right now. We’re hosting it with Dr. Christine Schaffner.  

JC: Oh wonderful! Because I love this stuff, so if you’re listening, I’ll be sure and if you go to the Facebook page, follow me on Instagram, just @drjillcarnahan, you will see the updates there. I’ll be sure and get information from you guys and share those links. So, if you’re interested in that summit, stay tuned I will have it on all my social media pages for everybody and we’ll share and I would love to be a part of it.

NP: Thank you! We’d love to have you!

JC: Awesome! Well, I can’t believe how quickly our hour goes! I think we’ve got some great information. Thank you so much for being here. We’ve got your website, I’ll be sure to include them. Thanks again for all the great information.

NP: Thank you so much for having me. Such an honor!

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Complex Chronic Illness, Detox and Toxins, Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Nafysa Parpia ND, Video Blogs

Can Tick-Borne Illness Be Transmitted in Utero?

Dr. Nafysa Parpia discusses a case about tick-borne illness and in-utero transmission.

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Transcript (Dr. Nafysa Parpia)

This is a case about tickborne illness being transferred in utero.

I really love the Infectolab test, because it’s really been able to see what is real clinically, in comparison to what is real via laboratory diagnosis, in a way that I haven’t been able to see before. I just have one case of this in the lab, but I think that it’s telling and I can’t wait to do more cases like this with Infectolab.

Regarding maternal transmission of tickborne illness, there’s not much research on this, right? This case does strongly suggest maternal transmission, which is why I’m very happy with this lab, Because I wouldn’t be able to have a case where I was able to demonstrate something like this with a lab.

According to the CDC, untreated Lyme disease during pregnancy can lead to infection of the placenta. But spread from mother to fetus is possible, but rare. We see this in our clinic very often. OK, so we see people, we see families where the mother or the father has the diagnosis of tickborne illness and the kids do as well. But we’re not sure, we think, we always thought that yes, it was transmitted in utero. And there’s a little bit of research that shows, but we couldn’t really prove it in the labs. So, remember this is just an N of one, so we’re not calling it proof, but I feel like it’s on the way. If I can keep showing this in the labs I’ll feel more like we can prove that.

Know that our population is unusual. We only see chronically ill people. And because of that, our population is skewed to this group of people. That’s likely why we see such a high incidence of familial spread clinically. The population is growing, we see more and more than we did 10 years ago, our clinic is filled with people we have complex chronic illness and filled with families who have complex chronic illness.

Which is why I found this case so interesting. In this group of patients with more severe symptoms, we see a higher incidence of transmission in their offspring. But, still the CDC is just reporting on the population, on the general, the population at large. That’s not who comes to see us.

I want to get straight to the punch with respect to the labs. I’m going to talk about the family, and then we’re going to go straight to the labs results.

OK, so, a brief history. We’ll talk about symptomology after.

The mother, 48-year-old white female, she was bitten by a tick six or more years ago. Six to eight years ago. She has mold exposure in the house that was five years ago, and she kept, that family kept getting re-exposed to mold over five years.

There’s a daughter, she’s six, no tick bite known, but of course she had mold exposure since birth because the family kept getting mold exposure over the last five years.

Son, he’s five, no known tick bite, mold exposure since birth.

And the father has too, no known tick bite, And of course mold exposure.

They come to me with a diagnosis of only mycotoxin and mold illness. A doctor had diagnosed them with that and had tried to treat them, nothing happened. They got a little better here and there. They did get keep getting re-exposed to mold, which is a reason why they didn’t improve, but there was not a diagnosis of tick-borne illness. Nobody diagnosed them with that.

So, they come to me, wanting a treatment for mycotoxins and mold, and by their symptoms I think there’s something else going on as well as the mold and mycotoxin illness. Of course, I am thinking it’s tickborne illness based on their symptoms which will get into after.

Talking about the father, so just the Infectolab diagnosis.  I don’t have the labs showing up here, all three of them because it’s just too much paper, and I want to show you this side by side. So, I’ve tried to put things together on the slides as much as possible. In his Infectolab test, there’s no tick-borne illness diagnosed. At all! None! But he does have some cytomegalovirus, interferon gamma borderline, which means he’s fighting it off. A little bit, it’s there. That’s all he has. And of course, there’s mycotoxins and severe mold IgG allergens, which are elevated. Diagnosed by another lab.

Here I’m going to talk about the mother, the daughter, and the son. There’s a lot of writing on this slide. There are some important things all on the same slide so you can compare and see the sharing of the diagnoses.

The mother, she’s got, this is all by Infectolab now, she’s got Lyme, Bartonella, Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus, all positive in interferon gamma. Meaning that she’s, the infections are active in her right now.

Next, let’s talk about the daughter. Remember she’s just six. Take a look at the infections she has in common with the Mother. No tick bite known, okay? Lyme, Bartonella, Epstein-Barr virus, cytomegalovirus. So, we see the exact same infections here. She’s got interferon gamma and interleukin two both positive. When I see that, I’m thinking, she’s in the process of getting her immune system under control, as evidenced by the interleukin two. These are from central memory T cells, which means that her body is beginning to tamp down the inflammatory response.

Now, we don’t know if this is because of a child’s strong immune system. We don’t have enough data on that. Or is it that we’re finding her right in that time between transmission and active infection resolution? I don’t know. I’d like to know, but we don’t have enough data on that. That’s a whole nother point in itself, but the main thing, the take home message here is that the mother and the daughter both have the same infections in common.  The mother has a history of a tick bite, the daughter doesn’t.

Now the son. He has Bartonella, interleukin two positive, Lyme, borderline interleukin two and interferon gamma, borderline, Ehrlichia, interleukin two and interferon gamma borderline, Epstein Barr virus, interleukin two borderline, the cytomegalovirus interleukin two, borderline.

The difference I see here is that he’s got Erhlichia, and his mother and sister don’t. Perhaps they did in the past, and that’s not apparent now in their immune system with either interferon gamma and interleukin two, or maybe he did have a tick bite which transmitted Ehlichia to him. I don’t know. It’s possible that he had a tick bite that the family isn’t aware of. According to them there was no tick bite, but sometimes they happen, right?  Even when people don’t know.

So, he appears to have a lot that’s borderline, but his mother and sister are currently fighting, and like his sister it’s likely that his immune system has fought off a lot of this. But most recently, he’s been getting Bartonella. According to his labs it’s just resolving.

Let me get to the next slide here.

So that was the piece that I wanted you all to see regarding how in this test this is a clear case of the likelihood, of the suggestion of tick-borne illness being transmitted in utero. We see the same infections all around for mother to children. With some exceptions here and there. I wouldn’t have been able to see this as clearly on other labs. Because here we’re looking at the immune system, looking at the interferon gamma and the interleukin two, and what is active right now.

I want to get into the clinical picture of these patients of mine. After talking about the labs, I thought it would be interesting for you to hear about their symptomology.

The clinical picture of the mother, she’s got this pain trifecta; shooting, burning, aching pain in her, myalgia and also in the joints. Typically, this is due to Bartonella, mold, and Lyme, that combination. Sure enough, on Infectolab, the Bartonella was raging, and so was the Lyme. So, her symptomology did correlate with what I found on Infectolab here.

And, brain fog. Lyme and mold more than Bartonella would typically cause brain fog. And, you know, her Lyme was raging as well, on the Lyme.

Extreme fatigue, likely from cytomegalovirus. Her cytomegalovirus was through the roof, I forgot to mention this, and so was her daughter’s. Like through the roof. And that was another way to, sorry, that’s another infection to think about transmission familialy, obviously that does happen. I just see how their immune systems handle it in a similar way. It was very interesting.

And of course, the fatigue could be due to the mold and tick-borne illness combination. So, they’re all consistent, all her symptoms are consistent with Lyme, Bartonella, Epstein Barr virus, cytomegalovirus all being active, but now I’m able to with this lab, I’m able to tease all that out. Better than before.

So now about the daughter. Her symptoms were constipation, could be due to tick borne illness, mold, mycotoxins, cytomegalovirus. They are new patients to me, so we’re also doing a GI panel. Could be due to parasites or other infections in the gut.

The puritis, likely due to Mast Cell Activation Syndrome or mold.

The fatigue is minor in her. Could be due to tick-borne illness, mold, and cytomegalovirus. So, her symptoms are not as severe as her mother’s, and this is consistent with a finding of no interleukin two in the mother, while she has significant interleukin two. This is another piece of the lab I really like. So, looking at the interleukin two, we can see that these infections are beginning to resolve. And likewise, her symptoms are not as bad now than previous to her being diagnosed.

OK, so on to the son. He had fits of rage as his primary, primary symptom. In fact, there’s no pain, there’s no fatigue, it’s all rage, and that is consistent with Bartonella. His Bartonella is now interleukin two positive, and that suggests that he’s resolving this infection. The interesting piece is that before he came to me, he was having fits of rage about 7-8 times a day, and now they’re three times a day. So that would make sense that the parents were telling me that when he was having fits 7-8 times a day, several months ago, it’s very different to now, with the fits three times a day. If you think several months ago, likely, his interferon gamma was positive, and now that he’s got interleukin two, it’s likely that his fits of rage are decreased because of that, because there is some healing happening, there’s some resolution of this infection happening.  

But really, really important to note is that the behavior pattern was likely established by the Bartonella, so it’s a classic Bartonella mental piece. However, when a neurological or mental or physiological piece is established by any infection, and that infection resolves, the body knows that pattern, and another infection or toxin can come in and carry on that pattern. So, very similar to what Dr. Gordon was saying with his case, that the tick-borne infection was resolved, but there’s a pattern there that still will be carried. Do we continue on with antibiotic therapy, or any therapy to resolve the infection, or do we work on regenerative medicine? Pieces to modulate the damage that had been done by the infections or the toxic things we’re talking about.

So, with the Bartonella here, I’m seeing that he’s still having Bartonella fits of rage. They’re less than previously, and I’m seeing the interleukin two positive, meaning he’s pretty much resolved this now. So, why’s he still having those fits? Do I need to treat for Bartonella? No, I’m not going to treat for Bartonella very much, or at least not very aggressively, because this lab is showing me it’s mostly resolved now. So, I’m going to treat for the other infections that I’ve diagnosed with him, diagnosed him with, and other toxicants I’ve diagnosed him with to undo the patterns the Bartonella created.

So, thank you guys! That’s my piece and it’s some, seems pretty clear to me in this lab that there was transmission from mother to children in utero, because she did get that tick bite before she had her children, and apparently her children did not have tick bites.

Biotoxin Issues, Lyme Disease - Pediatric, Lyme Disease + Coinfections, Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Nafysa Parpia ND, Video Blogs

They Can’t Find Anything Wrong

So Why Do I Feel So Bad?

Diagnosis at its best implies finding the cause of the disease. Thinking in linear cause and effect mode was reinforced by advances in surgery for traumatic injuries, and in the discovery of antibiotics for infectious disease. The ingrained habit for doctor and patient is to find the right diagnosis and then the correct treatment will be straight forward and hopefully effective.

Chronic complex illness does not follow this pattern. The problem is not just the inciting event or the viral or bacterial trigger. In chronic illness it is the variety of the person’s genetics and environmental experience that often matter more than the triggering event. Environmental experience includes the totality of our life experience: our physical environment, our chemical and electronic exposures, our socio-economic cultural group, and our psychological and spiritual issues and beliefs.

Thanks to metabolomics, we are now starting to see testing that reveals what is happening in the body NOW, as a result of the past and the present coming together.

Find out more at our page on Complex Chronic Illness

 

Hope for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome - Image by engin akyurt from PixabayIn medicine doctors usually work toward a diagnosis. Diagnosis at its best implies finding the cause of the disease. Thinking in linear cause and effect mode was reinforced by advances in surgery for traumatic injuries, and in the discovery of antibiotics for infectious disease. The ingrained habit for doctor and patient is to find the right diagnosis and then the correct treatment will be straight forward and hopefully effective.

Chronic complex illness does not follow this pattern. The problem is not just the inciting event or the viral or bacterial trigger. In chronic illness it is the variety of the person’s genetics and environmental experience that often matter more than the triggering event. Environmental experience includes the totality of our life experience: our physical environment, our chemical and electronic exposures, our socio-economic cultural group, and our psychological and spiritual issues and beliefs.

The problem with all symptoms is that they are internal experiences we all struggle to express in ways that another person can understand. This is difficult even when we agree on basic definitions, but doctors are trained to think about symptoms in very specific ways, while patients are not. So often, a stomach ache means one thing to your doctor – a pain somewhere in the area just below your ribs in the midline, or a bit to the left, or maybe to the right of midline of your abdomen. To the patient it could mean a pain below the belly button, or a generalized ache in the entire abdominal area. Maybe the word ache itself doesn’t mean the same thing to patient and doctor, as there are so many types of pain, each indicating something different could be wrong.

How does the diagnostic thinking proceed when you complain of stomach pain? The doctor’s first priority is to rule out, as we say in medical jargon, whether the cause of the pain is life threatening in origin. The appropriate questions and physical exam usually deal with this issue 90% of the time, and depending on your age and sex, may or may not require more in depth investigation. The problem we face with chronic illness is that the stomach pain that you have is usually not the mild gastritis seen on endoscopy, usually attributed to excess acid or H. Pylori infection. For people with chronic illness there may be multiple small stressors to the stomach that can add up to severe stomach problems, but often fail to show up when our focus is ruling out “serious “ problems.

Things that may contribute or even cause severe stomach pain include mild forms of Mast Cell Activation Disorder (MCAD) or (MCAS), intestinal dysbiosis, elevated but “normal” porphyrins, vagal nerve irritation from tight muscles or fascia along the vagal nerve’s course, and musculoskeletal problems – especially of the mid thoracic area, fascial strain patterns in the chest and abdomen or pelvis which affects proper blood and lymph flow to and from the involved organ. Infectious contributors can include low grade infections with Lyme or Bartonella, which would be missed if all you are looking for is H. Pylori. Viral infections, or gall bladder and pancreatic dysfunction can also be missed if you are not looking deeper.

Notice I refer to dysfunction. This includes the mild decrease in function from age and toxins that most of us take in stride. When another mild low grade problem is also present, let’s say a tendency to hypercoagulability, along with being chronically dehydrated, maybe a little low in calcium, and a tendency for your mast cells to over react and release chemicals that cause a bit of swelling, and all come together with a low grade infection, then suddenly the blood supply and lymph drainage hits a tipping point and you have stomach pain. You may also begin to react to foods that never bothered you before, or even to inhaled irritants that end up affecting your stomach.

What is the diagnosis here? All your tests are within normal limits, but you are at the high end of normal in some of these, and the low end in others, or just a bit out of range for normal, but not quite showing a disease. Symptomatic, but all tests “normal.

We tend to blame the immune system, but there is only the body system. We made artificial groupings of bodily functions in order to study and learn how it works. The problem is, we keep forgetting the whole body is a system. We investigate its parts, but it works as a whole.

Our job as medical practitioners isn’t just to look for the inciting cause, the bullet if you will. With chronic complex illness we have to peel back the layers of over and under function of your whole body. We have to find what imbalances in you allowed an insult, whether infection, toxin exposure, physical or emotional trauma, to have caused persistent ongoing symptoms rather than the usual short term illness and recovery.

Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Complex Chronic Illness, Detox and Toxins, Eric Gordon MD, Lyme Disease + Coinfections, Mast Cell Activation Syndrome (MCAS), Mold / Mycotoxin Illness, Tick Borne Illness